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Achieve Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast

Aug 20, 2019

James: Hey listeners, this is James Kandasamy. Welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast. Achieve Wealth Podcast focuses on value at real estate investing across different commercial asset class and we focus on interviewing a lot of operators so that you know, I can learn and you can learn as well. So today I have Omar Khan who has been on many podcasts but I would like to go into a lot more details into is underwriting and market analysis that he has. So Omar is a CFA, has more than 10 years investing across real estate and commodities. He has experience in the MNA transaction worth 3.7 billion, Syndicated Lodge a multi-million deal across the U.S. and he recently closed a hundred thirty plus something units in Jacksonville, Florida. Hey Omar, welcome to the show. 

Omar: Hey, thank you James. I'm just trying to work hard to get to your level man. One of these days. 

James: That's good. That's a compliment. Thank you Omar. So why not you tell our audience anything that I would have missed out about you and your credibility.

Omar: I think you did a good job. If I open my mouth my credibility might go down. 

James: Yes, that's good. That's good. So let's go a bit more details. So you live in Dallas, right? I think you're, I mean if I've listened to you on other podcasts and we have talked before the show you came from Canada to Dallas and you bought I think you have been looking for deals for some time right now. And you recently bought in Jacksonville. Can you tell about the whole flow in a quick summary? 

Omar: Oh, yes. Well the quick summary is man that you know, when you're competing against people who's operating strategy is a hope and a prayer, you have to look [inaudible01:54] Right? 

James: Absolutely. 

Omar: I mean, and hey just to give you a full disclosure yesterday there was actually a smaller deal in Dallas. It's about a hundred and twenty something units. And I mean we were coming in at 10-point some million dollars. And just to get into best and final people were paying a million dollars more than that, and I'm not talking just a million dollars more than I was trying to be cheap. The point was, at a million dollar more than that there is freaking no way you could hit your numbers, like mid teens that are already 10% cash-on-cash. Like literally, they would have to find a gold mine right underneath their apartment. So my point is it's kind of hard man. But what are you going to do about it? Right? 

James: Yes. Yes.

Omar: Just have to keep looking. You have to keep finding. You have to keep being respectful of Brokers' times. Get back to them. You just keep doing the stuff. I mean you would do it every day pretty much. 

James: Yes. Yes. I just think that there's so much capital flow out there. They are a lot of people who expect less, lower less return. Like you say you are expecting mid teen IRR, there could be someone there out there expecting 10 percent IRR and they could be the one who's paying that $1,000,000. Right? And maybe the underwriting is completely wrong, right? Compared to-- I wouldn't say underwriting is wrong. I mean, I think a lot of people--

Omar: Well you can say that James you don't have to be a nice person. You can say it. 

James: I'm just saying that everybody thinks, I mean they absolutely they could be underwriting wrong, too or they may be going over aggressively on the rent growth assumption or property tax growth assumption compared to what you have. At the same time they could have a much lower expectation on--

Omar: Yes. I mean let's hope that's the case because if they have a higher expectation man, they're going to crash and burn.

James: Absolutely.

Omar: I hope, I really hope they have a low expectation. 

James: Yes. Yes. I did look at a chart recently from Marcus and Millichap the for Texas City where they show us how that's like a San Antonio, Austin, Dallas and Houston and if you look at Dallas, you know, the amount of acceleration in terms of growth is huge, right? And then suddenly it's coming down. I mean all markets are coming down slightly right now, but I'm just hopefully, you know, you can see that growth to continue in all this strong market.

Omar: No, no, don't get me wrong, when I said somebody paid more than 1 million just to get into best and final, that has no merits on, that is not a comment on the state of the Dallas Market. I personally feel Dallas is a fantastic Market. Texas overall, all the big four cities that you mentioned are fantastic but my point is there is nothing, no asset in the world that is so great that you can pay an infinite price for it. And there's nothing so bad in the world that if it wasn't for a cheap enough price, you wouldn't want to buy it.

James: Correct, correct. 

Omar: I mean that that's what I meant. I didn't mean it was a comment on the state of the market. 

James: Got it. Got it. So let's come to your search outside of the Texas market, right? So how did you choose, how did you go to Jacksonville? 

Omar: Well, number one the deal is I didn't want to go to a smaller city. I'm not one of those guys, you know in search of [inaudible05:11] I find everybody every time somebody tells me I'm looking for a higher cap rate, I was like, why do you like to get shot every time you go to the apartment building? You want to go to the ghetto? Do you want somebody to stab you in the stomach? Is that because that's--

James: That's a lot of deals with a higher cap rate.

Omar: Yes. There's a lot because I was like man, I can find you a lot of deals with really high cap rates. 

James: Yes.

Omar: But you might get stabbed. Right? 

James: And they are set class 2 which has higher cap rate. 

Omar: Oh, yes, yes, yes. 

James: So I think people just do not know what a cap rate means or how--

Omar: Yes and people you know, all these gurus tell you today, I mean let's not even get into that right. So specifically for us like I wanted to stand at least a secondary, tertiary market [inaudible 05:48] I mean like, any City over at least eight, nine hundred thousand at least a million, somewhere in that range, right? 

James: Okay.

Omar: And specifically look, after Texas it was really Florida. Because look, you could do the whole Atlanta thing. I personally, I love Atlanta but it's a toss-up between Atlanta and say either of the three metros in Florida or Jackson. Lords in Central Florida, Jacksonville, Tampa, Orlando. You know based on my [inaudible06:11] experience I was doing this stuff portfolio management anyways, I kind of ran smaller factor model for all the cities where I took in different sort of factors about 30 different factors. And then you know, you kind of just have to do all the site tours and property visits to make all those relationships. And what I see across the board was, I mean Tampa has a great Market, but for the same quality product for the same demographic of tenant, for the same say rent level, Tampa was 20 to 25% more expensive on a per pound basis. 

James: Okay.

Omar: Let's say a Jacksonville, right? Orlando is kind of in the middle where the good deals were really expensive or rather the good areas were a bit too dear for us and the bad areas were nicely priced and everybody then tells you, "Oh it's Florida." right?

James: No, no.

Omar: But what they don't tell you is there's good and bad parts of Florida--

James: There's submarket. Yes Yes.

Omar: Right? So you got to go submarket by submarket. And then lastly what we were basically seeing in Jacksonville was, it was very much a market which like for instance in Atlanta and seeing parts of say Orlando and Tampa, you can have to go block by block street by street. But if you're on the wrong side of the street, man you are screwed, pretty much.

James: Absolutely.

Omar: But Jacksonville to a certain degree, obviously not always, was very similar to Dallas in the sense that there is good areas and then there's a gradual shift into a not as a [inaudible07:29] Right? So basically what you kind of had to do was name the submarket properly and if you had a higher chance of success than for instance [inaudible07:38] right down to the street corner, right? And then like I said the deals we were seeing, the numbers just made more sense in Jacksonville for the same level of demographic, for the same type of tenant, for the same income level, for the same vintage, for the same type of construction. So Jacksonville, you know, we started making relationships in all the markets but Jacksonville is where we got the best bang for our buck and that's how we moved in. 

James: Okay. So I just want to give some education to the listener. So as what Omar and I were talking about, not the whole city that you are listening to is hot, right. So, for example, you have to really look at the human capital growth in certain parts of the city, right? So for example in Dallas, not everywhere Dallas is the best area to invest. You may have got a deal in Dallas but are you buying in it in a place where there's a lot of growth happening? Right? Like for example, North Dallas is a lot of growth, right? Compared to South Dallas, right? In Atlanta that's I-20 that runs in between Atlanta and there's a difference between, you cross the I-20 is much, you know a lot of price per pound or price per door. It's like a hundred over door and below Atlanta is slightly lower, right?

So it's growing, but it may grow it may not grow. I mean right now the market is hot, everything grows. So you can buy anywhere and make money and you can claim that, hey I'm making money, but as I say market is--

Omar: [inaudible09:03] repeatable [inaudible09:04] By the way I look at it, is hey is this strategy repeatable? Can I just rinse and repeat this over and over and over?

James: Correct. Correct. I mean it depends on sponsor's cases. While some sponsors will buy because price per dollar is cheap, right? But do they look at the back end of it when the market turns, right? Some sponsors will be very very scared to buy that kind of deal because we always think about, what happens when the market turns, right? So.

Omar: Yes, James and the other thing that I've seen is that, look, obviously, we're not buying the most highest quality product.

James: Correct.

Omar: But what I've seen is a lot of times when people focus on price per unit, say I will go for the cheapest price per unit. Well, there's a reason why it's cheap because you know, there's a reason why Suzuki is cheaper than a Mercedes. Now, I'm not saying you have to go buy a Mercedes because sometimes you only need to buy a Suzuki. Right? I mean that's the way it is, but you got to have to be cognizant that just because something is cheap doesn't mean it's more valuable and just because something is more expensive doesn't mean it's less than. 

James: Correct. Correct. Correct. And price per door is one I think one of the most flawed metrics that people are talking about. Price per door and also how many doors do people own?

Omar: And also cap rate, man. [inaudible 10:09] 

James: Cap rate, price per door and--

Omar: How many doors have you got?

James: How many doors do you have? Three metrics is so popular, there is so much marketing happening based on these three metrics. I mean for me you can take it and throw it into the trash paper, right?

Omar: The way I look at it is I would much rather have one or two really nice things, as opposed to 10 really crappy things. 

James: Correct. Correct. Correct. Like I don't mind buying a deal in Austin for a hundred a door compared to buying a same deal in a strong Market in another-- like for example, North Atlanta, right? I would rather buy it in Austin. It's just different market, right? So. Absolutely different. So price per door, number of doors and cap rate, especially entry cap rate, right? I went back and cap rate you can't really predict, right? So it's a bit hard to really predict all that. But that's--

Omar: Yes but my point is with all of these things you have, and when people tell me cap rate I'm like, look, are you buying stabilized properties? Because that's the only time you can apply this.

James: Correct. Correct.

Omar: Otherwise, what you really going to have to look at is how much upside do I have because at the end of the day, you know this better than I do. Regardless of what somebody says, what somebody does, everything is valued on [inaudible11:15]

James: Correct.

Omar: Pretty much. You can say it's a low cap rate and the broker will tell you, well yes the guy down the street bought it for a hundred and fifty thousand a unit so you got to pay me a hundred fifty, right? And then that's the end of the conversation. 

James: Yes.

Omar: Literally, I mean that is the end of the conversation, right? What are you going to do about it? 

James: Yes. Correct. I mean the Brokers they have a fiduciary responsibility to market their product as much as possible, but I think it's our responsibility as Sponsor to really underwrite that deal to make sure that--

Omar: Oh yes.

James: --what is the true potential.

Omar: And look, to be honest with you sometimes the deal, that is say a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a unit might actually be a better deal--

James: Oh absolutely.

Omar: [inaudible 11:51] fifty thousand dollars a unit. I mean, you don't know till you run the numbers.

James: Correct. Absolutely. Absolutely. I've seen deals which I know a hundred sixty a door and still have much better deal than something that you know, I can buy for 50 a door, right? So. You have to underwrite all deals. There's no such thing as cap rate or no, such thing as price per door. I mean you can use price per door to a certain level. 

Omar: [inaudible 12:15] in this market what is the price per door? That's the extent of what you might potentially say, in the submarket. 

James: Correct.

Omar: All the comps are trading at 75,000 a door. Why is this at 95 a door? 

James: Yes.

Omar: That's it. 

James: I like to look at price per door divided by net square, rentable square footage because that would neutralize all measurements.

Omar: Yes, see, you know we had a little back and forth on this, I was talking to my Analyst on this but my point is that I would understand [inaudible 12:46] at least to my mind. Okay. I'm not, because I know a lot of Brokers use it. 

James: Sure.

Omar: In my mind that would apply to say, Commercial and Industrial properties more.

But any time I've gone to buy or say rent an apartment complex, I never really go and say like, hmm the rent is $800. It's 800 square feet. Hmm on a per square foot basis. I'm getting one dollar and then I go--

James: No, no, no, I'm not talking about that measurement. I'm talking about price per door divided by square footage rentable because that would neutralize between you have like whether you have a lot of smaller units, or whether you have a larger unit and you have to look-- but you have to plot it based on location. Right? So.

Omar: Yes, so you know as you get into those sort of issues right? Well, is it worth more than that corner? 

James: Yes. Yes. You're right. Yes. You have to still do rent comes and analyze it. 

Omar: Yes.

James: So let's all--

Omar: I mean look, I get it, especially I think it works if you know one or two submarkets really well. Then you can really--

James: Correct. Correct. That's like my market I know price because I know the market pretty well. I just ask you this information, just tell me price per door. How much average square feet on the units and then I can tell you very quickly because I know the market pretty well.

Omar: Because you know your Market, because you already know all the rents. You already know [crosstalk13:57]

James: [crosstalk13:57] You have to know the rent. I said you have to build that database in your mind, on your spreadsheet to really underwrite things very quickly. So that's good. So let's go back to Jacksonville, right? So you looked-- what are the top three things that you look at when you chose Jacksonville at a high level in terms of like the macroeconomic indicators?

Omar: Oh see, I wasn't necessarily just looking at Jackson. What I did is I did a relative value comparison saying what is the relative value I get in Jacksonville versus a value say I get in a Tampa, Atlanta or in Orlando and how does that relatively compare to each other? 

James: So, how do you measure relative--

Omar: What I did is for instance for a similar type of say vintage, right? Say a mid 80s, mid 70s vintage, and for a similar type of median income which was giving me a similar type of rent. Say a median income say 40 Grand a year or 38 to 40 Grand a year resulting in an average rate of about $800. Right? And a vintage say mid 70s, right? Board construction. Now what am I getting, again this is very basic maths, right? This is not I'm not trying to like make up. 

James: Yes. Absolutely.

Omar: A model out of this, right? So the basic math is, okay what is the price per unit I'm getting in say, what I have a certain crime rating, I have a certain median income rating and I have a certain amount of growth rating. And by growth I mean not just some market growth, [inaudible 15:21] are Elementary Schools nearby? Are there shopping and amenities nearby? Is Transportation accessible, you know, one or two highways that sort of stuff. Right? So for those types of similar things in specific submarkets, [inaudible 15:33] Jacksonville had three, Tampa had two and Orlando had three and Atlanta had four, right? What is the average price per unit I'm facing for similar type of demographics with a similar type of rent profile? With similar type of growth profile I mean you just plot them on a spreadsheet, right? And with the similar type of basically, you know how they performed after 2008 and when I was looking at that, what I was looking at again, is this precise? No, it's not a crystal ball. But these are just to wrap your head around a certain problem. Right? You have to frame it a certain way. 

James: Okay.

Omar: And what I was seeing across the board was that it all boils down to when you take these things because at the end of the day, all you're really concerned is what price am I getting this at, right? Once you normalize for all the other things, right?

James: Correct. Correct.

Omar: Right? And what I was seeing was just generally Jacksonville, the pricing was just like I said compared to Tampa which by the way is a fantastic market, right? But pricing was just 15 to 20% below Tampa. I mean Tampa pricing is just crazy. I mean right now I can look at the flyer and tell you their 60s and mid 70s vintage is going for $130,000 $120,000 a unit in an area where the median income is 38 to 40 Grand.

James: Why is that?

Omar: I don't know. It's not one of this is that the state Tampa is actually a very good market, okay. Let's be [inaudible 16:47] it's very good market. It's a very hot market now. People are willing to pay money for that. Right? So now maybe I'm not the one paying money for it, but there's obviously enough people out there that are taking that back. So.

James: But why is that? Is it because they hope that Tampa is going to grow because--

Omar: Well, yes. Well if Tampa doesn't grow they're all screwed James.

James: No, but are they assuming that growth or are they seeing something that we are not seeing? Because, if people are earning 30, 40 thousand median household income and the amount of apartment prices that much, they could be some of the metrics that they are seeing that they think--

Omar: Well, yes. Tampa's growth has been off the charts in the past few years, right? James: Okay. Okay.

Omar: So what look-- first of all this is the obvious disclaimer is I don't know what I don't know. Right? So I don't know what everybody else is looking at. Our Tampa's growth has been off the charts, there is a lot of development and redevelopment and all that stuff happening in the wider metro area. So people are underwriting five, six, seven, eight percent growth. 

James: Okay. So the growth is being--

Omar: No, the growth is very-- look the growth has been very high so far.

James: Okay. Got it.

Omar: My underlying assumption is, as I go in with the assumption that the growth must be high but as soon as I get in the growth will go down. 

James: But why is that growth? I mean that is specific macroeconomic. 

Omar: Oh yes, yes. There's first of all, there's a port there, number one. The port --

James: In Tampa. Okay. You're talking about Jacksonville or Tampa right now?

Omar: No, I'm talking Tampa.

James: Okay.

Omar: Jacksonville also has it, but Tampa also has it, okay.

James: Okay. Got it. Got it.

Omar: Tampa is also fast becoming, Tampa and Orlando by the way are connected with this, what is it? I to or I for whatever, it's connected by. So they're faster like, you know San Antonio and Austin how their kind of converging like this?

James: Correct. Correct.

Omar: Tampa and Orlando are sort of converging like this.

James: Got it. Got it.

Omar: Number one. Number two, they're very diversified employment base, you know all the typical Medical, Government, Finance, Healthcare all of that sort of stuff, right? Logistics this and that. And plus the deal is man, they're also repositioning themselves as a tourist destination and they've been very successful at it.

James: Okay. 

Omar: Because there's lots to do you know you have a nice beach. So, you know that kind of helps all this, right? Have a nice beach.

James: Correct. Correct.

Omar: Really nice weather, you know. So they're really positioning it that way and it also helps that you've got Disneyland which is about 90 minutes away from you in Orlando. So you can kind of get some of the acts things while you come to Tampa you enjoy all the stuff here. Because Orlando relative to Tampa is not, I mean outside of Disneyland there's not a lot to do though. But a lot of like nightlife and entertainment and all that. 

James: But I also heard from someone saying that like Orlando because it is more of a central location of Florida and because of all the hurricane and people are less worried about hurricane in the central because it you know, it has less impact.

Omar: James. James.

James: Can you hear me?

Omar: When people don't get a hurricane, they are not going to be the people who get the hurricane. Other people get hurricanes. Not us.

James: Correct, correct.

Omar: But that's not always the case but that's the assumption. 

James: Okay. By Tampa is the same case as well? Like, you know because of--

Omar: I don't know exactly how many hurricanes they've got but look man, they seem to be doing fine. I mean if they receive the hurricane they seem to be doing very fine after a hurricane. 

James: Okay. Okay. So let's go to Jacksonville, that's a market that did not exist in the map of hotness, of apartment and recently in the past three, four years or maybe more than that. Maybe you can tell me a lot more history than that. Why did it pop out as a good market to invest as an apartment?

Omar: Well, because Jackson actually, we talk to the Chamber of Commerce actually about this. And the Chamber of Commerce has done a fantastic job in attracting people, number one. Because first of all Florida has no state income tax. What they've also done is a very low otherwise state a low or minimum tax environment [inaudible20:29] What they've also done is, they reconfigured their whole thing as a logistical Center as well. So they already had the military and people always used to say, oh Tampa, Jacksonville's got a lot of military, but it turns out military's only 11% of the economy now.

James: Okay. Okay.

Omar: So they've reposition themselves as a leading Health Care Center provider, all that sort of, Mayo Clinic has an offshoot there by the way, just to let you know. It's a number one ranked Hospital. 

James: Oh Mayo Clinic. Okay. Okay. We always wonder what is Mayo Clinic, but now you clarified that.

Omar: Right? So Mayo Clinic is in Rochester I think. One of my wise colleagues is there actually. Think it's in Rochester Minnesota. It's one of the leading hospitals in the world.

James: Okay. Got it.

Omar: And now they've actually had an offshoot in basically Jacksonville, which is the number one ranked Hospital in Florida. Plus they've got a lot of good healthcare jobs. They've really repositioned themselves not only as a great Port because the port of Jacksonville is really good and they're really expanding their ports. You know Chicon, the owner of Jacksonville Jaguars, man he's going crazy. He is spending like two or three or four billion dollars redeveloping everything. 

James: Got it. Got it.

Omar: [inaudible 21:32] what they've done is because of their location, because they're right, I mean Georgia is about 90 minutes away, Southern Georgia, right? And now you have to go into basically, Florida and basically go to the Panhandle. What they've also done is because of their poor, because of their transportation Network and then proximity to the East Coast they repositioned themselves as a Logistical Center as well. 

James: Got it. That's what I heard is one of the big drivers for Jacksonville. And I also heard about the opening of Panama Canal has given that option from like importing things from China. It's much, much faster to go through Panama Canal and go through Jacksonville.

Omar: Oh, yes.

James: Makes it a very good distribution centre.

Omar: Because the other board right after Jacksonville in which by the way is also going through a big redevelopment and vitalization is Savannah, Georgia. 

James: Okay. Yes.

Omar: [inaudible 22:17] big enough and I think Jacksonville does something like, I mean don't quote me on this but like 31% of all the cars that are imported into the U.S. come through the Jacksonville Port. So there's a lot of activity there, right? But they've really done a good job. The Government there has done a fantastic job in attracting all this talent and all these businesses. 

James: Okay. Okay. Got it. So let me recap on the process that you came to Jacksonville and going to the submarket. So you looked at a few big hot markets for apartments and looked at similar characteristics for that submarket that you want like for closer to school, in a good location and you look at the deal flow that you are getting from each of these markets. And then you, I mean from your assessment Jacksonville has a good value that you can go and buy right now for that specific demographic of location I guess, right?

Omar: Look I love Atlanta as well. I was actually in Atlanta a few weeks ago looking at some, touring some properties. So that doesn't mean Atlanta isn't good or say Tampa or Orlando is good. We were just finding the best deals in Jacksonville. 

James: Okay. Okay. So the approach you're taking is like basically looking at the market and shifting it to look for deals in specific locations of submarket where you think there is a good value to be created rather than just randomly looking at deals, right? Because--

Omar: Because man it doesn't really help you, right? If you really go crazy if you try to randomly look at deals. 

James: Yes. Yes. I think a lot of people just look at deals. What, where is the deal? What's the deal that exist? Start underwriting the deals right? So--

Omar: Oh I don't have that much free time and I have a son who's like 18 months old man My wife is going to leave me if I start underwriting every deal that comes across my desk. 

James: Yes, I don't do all the deals that comes across.

Omar: I'm going to kill myself trying to do all that. Yes man it's very surprising I see a lot of people especially on Facebook posting. I mean I get up in the morning and I see this, [inaudible 24:05] who loves to underwrite deals? And I'm like, dude it's 1 a.m. Go get a beer. Why are you underwriting a deal at 1 a.m., man? 

James: Yes. Yes. Yes I think some people think that you can open up a big funnel and make sure you know out of that funnel you get one or two good deals, right? But also if you have experience enough you can get the right funnel to make sure you only get quality data in, so that whatever comes in is more quality.

Omar: My point is man, why do you want to underwrite more deals? Why don't you underwrite the right deal and spend more time on that deal or that set of deals.

James: Correct.

Omar: Because there's just so many transactions in the U.S. man. There's no way I can keep up man.

James: Correct. Correct. Correct. So let's go to your underwriting Jacksonville because I think that's important, right? So now you already select a few submarkets in Jacksonville, right and then you start networking with Brokers, is that what you did? 

Omar: Yes. Yes but you know with Brokers also, you kind of have to train them, right? Because what happened is every time what are you looking at? All that after all that jazz, wine and dining and all that stuff. We had to train Brokers [inaudible25:08] here are only specific submarkets we're looking at. So for instance Jacksonville, it was San Jose, San Marcos, it's the beaches, it was Mandarin and orange [inaudible25:16] 

James: Okay.

Omar: And Argyle Forest was certainly, right? If it's anything outside of that, unless I don't know it's like the deal of the century, right? Literally, somebody is just handing it away. We don't want to look at it. Don't waste my time. And invariably what the Brokers will do, because it's their job they have to do it. They'll send you deals from other submarkets because they want to sell. Hey, I think this is great. You will love this.

James: Yes.

Omar: And you have to keep telling them, hey man I really appreciative that you send me this stuff, not interested. Not interested. So, but what that does is you do this a few times and then the Broker really remembers your name when a deal in your particular submarket does show up. Because then you go to the top of the pile.

James: Correct. Because they know that you asked specifically for these right now. 

Omar: Yes. [inaudible25:58] You know the deal. Right? So that's kind of what we get, right?

James: So let's say they send a deal that matches your location. So what is the next thing we look at?

Omar: So what I basically look at is what are the demographics. Median income has got to be at the minimum 38 to 40 thousand dollars minimum.

James: What, at median household income?

Omar: Median household income. Right?

James: Got it. Got it. Why do you think median household income is important?

Omar: Because look, again this is rough math I didn't do a PhD in [inaudible 26:27] 

James: Sure, sure, sure. Go ahead.

Omar: Typically, you know, where [inaudible 26:30] everybody says BC but really everybody is doing C. Okay, you can just-- I think people just say B to sound nice. Right? It's really C. Okay, let's be honest. Right? Typically with a C if you're going to push [inaudible 26:41] within one or two years, in these submarkets at least, I don't know about other areas. Typically you want to push the rents to around a thousand dollars a month, give or take. Average rate. I'm just talking very cool terms, right? Which basically means that if you're pushing it to a thousand dollars a month and the affordability index is it should be 33%, 1000 times 12 is 12, 12 times 3 is 36. So I just added an extra 2,000 on top or 4000 on top just to give a margin of safety. 

James: Okay.

Omar: Right? It's very simple math, right? There's nothing complex in it. Right? 

James: Correct.

Omar: Because my point is if you're in an area where the average income is 30,000, man you can raise your rent all you like. Nobody's going to pay you.

James: Yes. Yes, correct. So I think we can let me clarify to the listeners, right? So basically when you rent to an apartment, we basically look for 3x income, right? So that's how it translates to the household income, average household income and if you want to do a value-add or where deals, you have a margin of buffer in our site and you're buying it lower than what the median household income, that's basically upside. That means you can find enough renters to fill up that upside, right? 

Omar: Yes.

James: Just to clarify to the listeners. So go ahead. So you basically look up median household income. What is the next step do you look for?

Omar: Then I basically look at crime. Basically, I just-- I mean look, there's going to be a level of crime, what I'm really looking at is violent crime. Right?

James: Violent crime. Okay. How do you look for which tools to use? 

Omar: Well, you can go to crime map, crime ratings, you can subscribe to certain databases and they can give you neighborhood Scout is one by the way. 

James: Okay. Okay.

Omar: You can use that. And then on top of that because it's harder to do this for Texas, but you can do this in other states like Florida, Georgia and all of that. But for instance, what you can do is see what the comps in the submarket are. Right? And that kind of helps you in determining basically, look if all the properties for a certain vintage around you have traded for a certain amount of money, then if something is up or below that there's got to be a compelling reason for that. Now I'm not saying if it's above it's a bad reason and don't do it. There's got to be a compelling reason. Now they might be actually a very good reason. Right?

James: Got it.

Omar: So, you know that's like a rough idea and then basically I'm looking at rent upside. Basically look at co-stars and see what the average rents are for this property. What is roughly the average rent upside and you can also seek [inaudible29:04] place that I had a few contacts in Jacksonville and you can also call those up. Right? Again, rough math kind of gives you hey, do I send five hundred two hundred dollars and then basically see what is the amount of value [inaudible29:16]. Because for instance, if all the units have been renovated which by the way happened yesterday. Yesterday we came across [inaudible29:22] in Jackson where I know the Broker and I mean he sent me the email. You know, the email blast out and basically what we saw was the location was great, there's a lot of rent up, supposedly there's rent upside, but when I called the guy up, we know each other. He's like, bro, all the units have been renovated. There's maybe 50, 75, I know you so I'm going to tell you there's only 50, 75 so the price isn't going to be worth it.

James: Yes, and they'll ask you to do some weird stuff, right? Like go there, washer, dryer, rent the washer dryer out.

Omar: Yes. Yes.

James: But charge for assigned parking, right? So very small amount in terms of upside, right?

Omar: My point is if it was so easy why don't you do it?

James: Yes. Correct.

Omar: That's the way I look at it. 

James: Yes, usually I mean when I talk to the Brokers I will know within the few seconds whether it's a good deal or not. They'll be really excited if it matches what we are looking for, right? Especially--

Omar: Yes because I think the other deal is if you develop a good relationship with Brokers and they know what you're specifically looking for, good Brokers can kind of again look they have to sell but they can also give you some guidance along the way.

James: Correct. Correct.

Omar: Right? They can do a lot bro, it doesn't really work for you I think, but I'm just going to be honest with you, and look you still have to take it with a grain of salt but it is what it is. 

James: Correct, correct. Okay. So look for rent upside by looking at rent comps and you said in Texas which is a non-disclosure state it's hard to find sales comp but… 

Omar: Yes, but look, you know if you're in a market you're going to know who the people are doing deals. Which people are doing deals. 

James: Okay.

Omar: And even if you don't know it, say your property manager kind of knows it, or your  loan broker or lender knows kind of what deals have traded in the market. You got me. You can pick up a phone and call some people, right? Maybe you don't get all the information but you can get, I mean if you're in submarket or sometimes even in Texas, you can't know. 

James: Yes, exactly. Exactly. So when do you start underwriting on your Excel sheet? 

Omar: Oh bro after I've done the property tour because if these don't even pass this stuff why you even bothering to underwrite it. 

James: Oh really? So okay. So you basically look at market--

Omar: [inaudible 31:28] My point is, if it passes all these filters and then I have a conversation, I talk to my property manager, I talk to the Broker, I talk to my local contacts there and if it's all a go and these are all five-minute conversations or less. It's not like a two hour long conversation if it passes through all this they're just going to [inaudible 31:45] property door, man. 

James: Okay, so you basically-- but what about the price? How do you determine whether the price they asking is reasonable or not.

Omar: Well, obviously because I can do a rough math and compare it against the comps, right? 

James: Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. So you basically do [inaudible 31:59] 

Omar: Oh, yes. Yes, because my point is why waste myself? Because look, the price could make sense, all the Brokers pictures we all know look fantastic. It looks like you're in like Beverly Hills, you know. So the pictures you know are kind of misleading, right? And the location might be really good but hey, you might go there and realize you know, the approach is really weird. Or for instance we were touring this one property and then 90% of I think the residents were just hanging out at 12:00 noon.

James: Correct.

Omar: Outside smoking. 

James: At 12 o'clock. Wow.

Omar: I said, well what the hell is this. Right? So my point is some things you only know when you do tour a property, there's no amount of videos and photos because the Broker isn't going to put a bad photo on. 

James: Yes. Yes. Their Excel spreadsheets are going to tell you that, right? 

Omar: Yes.

James: So basically, you know, you have to go. What about what else do you look for when you do a property tour other than… 

Omar: So you know when they're doing a property tour, like obviously I'm taking a lot of notes, I'm taking a lot of pictures, a lot of times the Broker will say one thing and then you kind of turn back around and ask the same question a different way just to kind of see.

But what I also like to do is I also like to tour the property. On the property tour I like to have the current property manager and look I'm not stupid enough to say that the Broker hasn't coached the property manager. The broker has obviously coached the property manager that's his job. But a lot of times you'll realize that they haven't been coached enough. So if you ask the right questions the right way you can get some level of information. Again you have to verify everything and another trick I also figured out is. You should also try to talk to the maintenance guy and have him on the property tour and then take these people aside and so the Broker can be with somebody else. Ideally you should tour with two people. So if one guy takes care of the Broker and you take care of the property manager or the other way around. Because then you can isolate and ask questions, right? So especially if you take like say a maintenance guy and you ask him, hey man so what kind of cap X you think we should do? What do you think about the [inaudible 33:54]? A lot of times those people haven't been coached as much or at all.

James: Correct. 

Omar: And to be honest with you, man, we are in a high trust society. Most people aren't going to completely just lie to your face. They might lie a little bit but people aren't going to say red is blue and blue is purple.

James: Correct.

Omar: You know you can see that. You know when somebody says it, you can feel it. Come on.

James: You can feel, yes. That's what I'm coming. You can actually see whether they are trying to hide stuff or not. But you're right, asking the maintenance guy is a better way than asking the property managers or even the other person is like leasing agent. 

Omar: Yes.

James: Who were assigned to you. They probably will tell you a lot more information.

Omar: And that's why I feel like it's better to have two people like you and a partner touring.

James: Okay.

Omar: Because then different people, like one because look, and there is nothing wrong. The Broker has to do this. The Broker always wants to be with you to see every question is answered the way he wants it to be answered. So then one of your partners or you can tackle the Broker and the other person can tackle somebody else.

James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to, okay so now you are done with the property tour. Now you're going to an [inaudible35:01] underwriting, right? So, how do you underwrite, I mean I want to talk especially about Jacksonville because it's a new market for you and you are looking at a new, how did you underwrite taxes, insurance and payroll because this--

Omar: Taxes was very easy to do. You talk to a tax consultant and you also see what historically the rate has been for the county. Right?

James: Okay.

Omar: But again, just because your new doesn't mean you don't know people.

James: Correct. But how do you underwrite tax post acquisition? Because I mean in taxes is always very complicated--

Omar: No but taxes is harder, right? But [inaudible 35:32] in Florida it's easier because the sale is reported. They already know what price it is.

James: So do they, so how much let's say how many percent do they increase it to after--

Omar: Typically in Duval County where we bought, it's about 80 to 85% [inaudible35:46] 

James: Okay. Okay. That's it. 

Omar: But the tax rate is low, right? Just to give you an idea the tax rate is [inaudible35:51] in Texas a tax rate is higher. So you understand there's lots of things and for instance in Florida there's an early payment discount. So if you pay in November, so it's November, December, January, February, right? So if you pay in November, which is four months before you should be paying you get 4% off your tax return. 

James: Oh, that's really good.

Omar: And if you pay in December you get 3% off, if you pay January you get well, whatever 2% off. In February you get 1% off.

James: So what is the average tax rate in Florida? 

Omar: I don't know about Florida. I know about Douval. It was like 1.81. 

James: Wow, that's pretty low. Yes compared to--

Omar: Yes, but you also have to realize you have the percentage of assessed value is higher, right? Depending on which county you are in. You're in San Antonio and Austin where Bear county is just crazy.

James: Bear Travis County, yes.

Omar: Yes. Bear and Travis are just crazy but there are other counties in for instance Texas where the tax might be high but percentage of assessed value is really low. 

James: Correct. 

Omar: No, I mean it balances out. Right? My point is--

James: Yes. So but what about the, do you get to protest the tax and all that in the Duval County in Jacksonville?

Omar: I think you can. No you were not, I think I know you can because we're going to do it. But you need to have a pretty good reason, right? 

James: Okay. Okay.

Omar: Right? And obviously look, you can show that yea, look I bought it for this price, but my income doesn't support this tax or this or that. I mean you have to hire the right people.

I'm not going to go stand and do it myself. 

James: So basically they do bump up the price of the acquisition, but it's very easy to determine that and 80 to 85% of whatever. 

Omar; Yes. Yes. Yes.

James: That's--

Omar: But look man, on the flip side is that when you go in, you kind of have a better control of your taxes in Texas where taxes can just go up and you [inaudible37:29] 

James: Yes. Yes. You have no control in Texas. So we usually go very very conservative to a hundred percent. So which--

Omar: Look my point is it's good and bad, right? It depends where you are. So now people will say, oh the tax person knows all your numbers and like, yes but I can plan for it. 

James: Yes, yes, correct. But it also gives you an expectation difference between buyer and seller because the buyer is saying this is my cap rate whereas the seller is saying, this is what, I mean the seller is going to say this is one of the cap rate whereas the buyer is going to say this is my cap rate will be after acquisition because--

Omar: Yes. Of course.

James: So when it's smaller [inaudible38:03] between these two, the expectation is more aligned compared to in Texas because you know, it can jump up a lot and there's a lot of mismatch of expectations. Right?

Omar: Well actually a deal in Houston, it's near Sugar Land and yesterday I was talking to this guy who wanted me on the deal and the other deal isn't going anywhere because the taxes were reassessed at double last year. Now he has to go to this the next week to fight it. Man, there's no way you're going to get double taxes in Florida or Georgia where there's our disclosure state, right?

James: Correct. Correct, correct. So that's a good part because the buyer would be saying that's not my, the seller would be saying that's not my problem and buyer is going to say I have to underwrite that, right? So.

Omar: I mean man, you can have a good case, right? Because it's not like somebody is saying something to you like, look man this is the law. 

James: Yes, correct. So let's go back to Insurance. How do you underwrite Jacksonville Insurance? Because I know in Florida there is a lot of hurricane and all that--

Omar: [inaudible 38:58] just to give you an idea that is a complete myth because Jacksonville has only had one hurricane in the past eight years. 

James: So is it lower than other parts of Florida? Or it just--

Omar: Yes. So the first it only depends where you are in Florida. Number one, right? Number two, it depends if you're in a flood plain or not, but that's in Texas as well. Right? And number three, it also depends a lot of times, well how many other claims have happened in your area? Right? Because that kind of for the insurance people that's kind of like a you know, how risky your area is quote unquote for them. So yes, so in Jacksonville, and apparently I did not need to know this information but we were told this information. Like the coast of Florida where Jacksonville is the golf coast is really warm where Jacksonville is, not golf courses on the other side, it's the Atlantic side. These are really warm waters relatively speaking. So apparently there's like some weather system which makes it really hard for hurricanes to come into Jacksonville. So that's why it's only had one hurricane in the 80 years. 

James: So when you get your insurance quote, when you compare that to other parts of other markets--

Omar: Oh yes, Tampa was way higher, man.

James: What about like Houston and Dallas? 

Omar: I don't know about Houston because I haven't really lately looked at something in Houston. Right? So I can't really say about Houston and Dallas was maybe like say $25, $50 less maybe.

James: Oh really. Okay. 

Omar: Yes. It wasn't because that was a big question that came up for everybody. I was like look man, literally here's all the information and you don't even have to take my word for it because I'm giving you sources for all the information. Right? [crosstalk40:24]

James: [crosstalk40:25] rate at different markets?

Omar: Sorry?

James: Are you talking about the insurance rate for--

Omar: Yes. Yes. Yes. Because a lot of guys from Chicago, I had a few investors they were like, but Florida has real hurricanes. I was like, yes but Jacksonville doesn't.

James: Okay, got it. So you basically got a code from the insurance guy for the--

Omar: Oh yes man, I wasn't just going to go in and just put my own number that has no basis in reality. 

James: Correct, correct. So, what about payroll? How did you determine the payroll? 

Omar: So the payroll is pretty easy man. You know how much people get paid on per whatever hour. You know, you can have a rough idea how many people you are going to put on site and then you know what the load is, so then it gets pretty easy to calculate what your payroll is going to be.

James: What was the load that you put in?

Omar: So the load in this particular case was like 40% which is very high.

James: Okay--

Omar: Yes it is pretty high. But the--

James: That is pretty high is very high.

Omar: No. No. No. But hold on. They put our wages really low, right? 

James: Oh really? Okay.

Omar: Then you have got to [inaudible41:16] around. I was paying roughly the same that I was paying in [inaudible41:19] 

James: Really? So why is that market… 

Omar: I have no idea man, and I tried to check I asked multiple people. We did all that song and dancing. It's all kind of the same. 

James: So you looked at the current financials and looked at the payroll?

Omar: No. No, I was talking about my payroll would be going forward. I don't really care what the guy before me paid. Why do I care?

James: So you got that from your property management? 

Omar: Yes. Yes. Yes. And then I verified it with other property managers and blah blah blah blah blah checked everything, you know did all the due diligence.

James: Got it. Yes. It's interesting that because 40% is really high. I mean usually--

Omar: Yes but [inaudible41:52] basis was really low. Like people salaries are really lower. 

James: Is that a Jacksonville specific?

Omar: I don't know what it is specifically. I think it's a Florida-based thing relatively speaking. But yes, that's what I mean. I thought it was kind of weird too. But then I mean I checked with other people. 

James: So the deal that you're doing, I presume is a value ad deal. Is that right?

Omar: Oh yes, all the deals--

James: How deep is the value at? I mean roughly at high level, how much are you putting in?

Omar: Man, nothing has been touched for ten years. In fact, let's put it this way. We have enough land we checked with the city that we have enough land at the back to develop 32 more units. 

James: That's really good because it's hard to find deals now, you know. Like ten years not touched, right? All deals are being flip right now, right? So within a couple of years. So that's good. That should be a really good deal. And what is the--

Omar: A hundred percent we could do basically. 

James: What was your expense ratio that you see based on income divided by your expenses? I mean first--

Omar: Hold on man, let me just take it out. I don't even have to tell you. Hold on. 

James: Okay.

Omar: Why even bother you know? 

James: Because usually like 50 to 55% is common in the [inaudible 42:59] industry.

Omar: Oh no in basically in Jacksonville. You can get really lower expense ratios. 

James: Okay. 

Omar: It depends if it's submarket [inaudible43:05] 

James: Yes, and I know like in Phoenix, I think it was like 45, or 40% which was surprising to me [crosstalk43:13] 

Omar: [crosstalk43:13] this right now. Hold on let me open this model I can tell you right now. I don't want to give you something [inaudible 43:21] then variably one person's going to be like, I looked at your deal your numbers--Like, yes I'm sorry. I don't like have like numbers with second decimal points. Because people always do that to try to catch you. Right? And they're like, yes it's off by like $2 man. So hold on, divided by, oh yes so it was operating at 52 and yes first year we're going to be at 56 because you know we are repositioning--

James: Yes. First year of course, it will be higher--

Omar: And then we just go down. 

James: Okay. Okay, okay that's interesting, that's good. So, and then as the income grows and your expenses stabilize, I think that expenses should be--

Omar: That's the only reason why the expense ratio goes down. Right? Because you're basically your top Line growth is way higher than your basically your expense growth. 

James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay, that's really good. And you look for mid teens IRR.

Omar: Mid teens IRR, a 10% cash flow and stabilized, all that jazz.

James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay, that sounds good in terms of the underwriting. So--

Omar: Am I giving you all my secrets James? 

James: Yes, absolutely. I will be very specific to Jacksonville. Right? I like to see you know, how each market is being underwritten and so that a business can learn and you know, it's very specific to people who do a lot of analysis on the market because I think that's important, right? You can't just go and buy any deal out of the gate right there, right? So it's good to know that. And these three things like payroll, insurance and taxes are very tricky when you--

Omar: Oh yes.

James: --in different markets. So it's good to understand how does that county or that particular city or state determines their property taxes? Because we have different things in taxes here where I buy so it's good to understand. That's good. What is the most valuable value ad that you think that you're going to be doing to this deal?

Omar: Oh well look man, because nothing had been touched. I think everything is valuable. 

James: Okay.

Omar: Hold on but that we lucked out also, right? There's a part of this is work and preparation. Or part of this is luck also. I mean you can't just take that portion away, right?

James: Oh yes yes. Absolutely.

Omar: All my hard work. Right?

James: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Omar: Because there's lots of people--

James: It's really hard to find that kind of deals nowadays, right? So how much was your rehab budget? 

Omar: So rehab is about a million dollars.

James: A million dollars. So let's say your million-dollar today become 500,000 right? I'm showing million dollar you're bringing into your exterior everything upgrade. Right? So let's say then--

Omar: Your exterior is roughly split 70/30. Interior [inaudible46:01] 

James: Okay. Okay. So between interior and exterior which one do you think is more important? 

Omar: I think if you only had a few dollars, exterior.

James: Exterior, okay.

Omar: Because people make a-- again this doesn't mean you should ignore the interior. Just to add a disclaimer. The point is, my point is a lot of times we as humans make decisions on first impressions. So if you come into a property and the clubhouse looks [inaudible 46:28] the approach looks [inaudible 46:29] the trees are trimmed, the parking lot is done nicely, then you go to an apartment which may, I mean I'm not saying it should be a complete disaster, but it might not be the best apartment in the world. You can overcome that. Right? But if you come in and the approach looks like you know, somebody got murdered here, right and the clubhouse looks like you know fights happen here, then no matter how good your indeed a renovation is, there's a good chance people will say well, I mean, it looks like I might get killed to just get into my apartment.

James: Yes.

Omar: Right? So it's the first impression thing more than anything else. It's like any other thing in life I feel.

James: Absolutely. So let's say you are 300,000 for exterior. Right? Let's say that 300,000 become a 150,000, what are the important exterior renovation that you would focus on?

Omar: So we did all the tree trimming because man, there's first of all living in Texas you realize how much a mystery still [inaudible 47:26] right? So first of all, tree trimming. Trees hadn't been trimmed for 10 years man. They were beautiful Spanish [inaudible 47:34] oak trees with Spanish moss on them. But they just hadn't been trimmed.

James: Okay. Okay.

Omar: So doing all the tree trimming, all the landscaping, then basically resealing the driveway and then making sure all the flower beds and all the approach leading up to all of that was done properly and the monument signage. 

James: Okay, got it. So this is what you would focus on. And what about--

Omar: But also putting a dog park by the way. [inaudible 47:57] you said if my $300,000 budget went to 150 what I do and that's--

James: Yes. Dog park is not very expensive.

Omar: Yes. But I'm saying it's stuff like dog park and [inaudible 48:06] to your outdoor kitchen, you're swimming pool, put a bigger sign in. You know [inaudible48:11] 

James: Yes and dog park is one of the most valuable value ad because you spend less on it, but a lot of people want it, right? So for some reason, I mean people like pets and all that. So what about the interior? You have 700,000, how much per door are you planning to put for each--

Omar: So roughly say I can do the math roughly. There was six something. Right? So and

James: [inaudible48:32] 

Omar: Yes, so we're not even-- so we're planning on doing roughly say 75% of the unit's right? So I think that's  104 units if you go 700 divided by 104, roughly we were going to be around $6500 per unit.

James; Okay. That's a pretty large budget. 

Omar: Yes, man you should see some of these units man, I was like why God how do people even live here? 

James: Yes.

Omar: Because it's a very affluent. I mean relatively middle class, upper middle class submarket, right? They just haven't done anything. 

James: So are you going to be using the property management company to do the renovations?

Omar: They have a very fantastic reputation and they were highly recommended a few of our other contacts also use them so that's why.

James: Okay.

Omar: Because we were seeing problems with a lot of other people's property managers. Either they didn't have the right staff or didn't have the right professionals and this and that indeed these guys were properly integrated across the value chain.

James: So at high level, what are you doing on the interiors?

Omar: High level Interiors, it's a typical, [inaudible 49:29] back splashes, change the kitchen appliances, countertops, medicine cabinets, lighting packages. The other small little thing which we realized was a very big value add but was cost us less than two dollars and fifty cents per outlet was the [inaudible 49:45] Yes it was the biggest value add--

James: Yeah, biggest value add; that is the most valuable value add. Right?

Omar: Yes.

James: Like I've never done it in any of my properties but I was telling my wife, Shanti and I said, hey, you know, we should do these, you know, because it's so cheap and a lot of people, a lot of--

Omar: Yes, it was like two dollars or whatever, it was cheaper than that and people cannot get over the fact that they have so many USB out, I was like, everywhere there is a plug there's got to be a USB outlet.

James: So do you put for every outlet? The USB?

Omar: Not for every, I was dramatizing but I mean for the ones that are accessible say around the kitchen, living room.

James: Okay interesting I should steal that idea. 

Omar: I didn't invent the idea go for it man. 

James: Yes.

Omar: [inaudible 50:25] USB port so take it. 

James: I know a few other people who do it mentioned that too but I'm not sure for some reason we are not doing it. But that should be a very simple--

Omar: People love it man. And I don't blame them man. Like it's freaking aggravating sometimes, you know, when you got to put like a little thing on top of your USB and then you plug it in.

James: Yes, imagine how much you know, this life has changed around all this electronic [crosstalk50:46] devices and all that. So interesting. So did you get a lot of advice from your property management companies on how to work and what are the things to renovate and all that? Or how--

Omar: Yes, and no because we had been developing a relationship with them six months prior to this acquisition. So we had a good relationship with not just them but with other vendors in the market. And especially luckily for us the regional we have for this property right now, actually in an earlier life and with an earlier employer had actually started working on this asset 15 years ago as a property manager. This is sheer dumb luck. This is not by design. So she really knew where all the [inaudible51:24] 

James: Yes. Yes, that's interesting. Sometimes you get people who have been in the industry for some time. They say yes, I've worked on that property before they, which is good for us because they know. Got it. Got it. So let's go to a more personal side of things. Right? So you have been pretty successful now and you're doing an apartment syndication now and all that, right? So why do you do what you do?

Omar: James, I know a lot of people try to say they have a big "why" and they have a really philosophical reason James, my big "why" is James, I really like-- my lifestyle is very expensive James. So all these nice suits.

James: Okay.

Omar: All these nice vacations man, they're not cheap. Okay. Real estate is a pretty good way to make a lot of money man. 

James: Okay. 

Omar: I want to give you a philosophical reason, I know a lot of people say they have the Immigrant success story, Oh I came from India or I came from Pakistan, I ate out of a dumpster, I worked in a gas station and no I had five dollars in my pocket, and everybody tells me that and I say, okay what did you do man? I don't know did you just swim from India, you had two dollars in your pocket you need to get on a plane buddy. 

James: You can't be here, right? 

Omar: No Indian shows up to America and [inaudible 52:37] Are you kidding me? All the Indians are educated. Everybody's an engineer or doctor or lawyer. You kidding me. He shows up with five dollars, man. So no I didn't show up to this country with five dollars James. I didn't eat out of a dumpster. I didn't work at a gas station, and I'm very grateful for that. Right? I've always had a very good lifestyle and I don't need to have a philosophical reason to say I'm doing this to, I don't know, solve world hunger or poverty or whatever. I have a pretty good lifestyle. I'm very grateful and very blessed. And the biggest thing in my life is being that, look I moved to Texas man I didn't know anybody. Right? But people have been so generous, people have been so kind to me. I'm not just saying investing with us, which is very nice, which I'm very grateful but also connecting me with other people, right? Hey, hey just opening a door. They didn't have to do it, but people have been so generous and so kind, So I quite enjoy the fact man that it's a good way to  make an honest living, right? I have a very expensive lifestyle that needs to get financed and that's just the way it is. And I didn't show up with two dollars in my pocket. So I'm very  grateful for that. 

James: That sounds good. So, can you give some, do you have any daily habits that you think makes you more successful?

Omar: No man, I just get up every day and I try to put one step after the other but consistently work in the same direction. So every day I'm reaching out to people and that's a lot of small little tasks. First of all, I never like getting up early but I've always known the value of getting up early. So I get up in the morning, right? 5:45, 550 ish I kind of up. Most days not always, right? I read a lot of books man. I reach out to Brokers all the time.

I'm always looking at deals, coordinating with my team to do stuff and a lot of these like you do in your business there are a lot of small little tasks there's no one task that is, oh my God, you do this and [inaudible 54:33] But it's just small little tasks that you do daily, every single day in and day out. So even if you're feeling sick, even if your head is hurting you just do it. 

James: So can you give a few advice to people who want to start in this business?

Omar: Regularly communicating. So in my particular case, I don't know like when you're starting out specifically everybody has a different pain point, right? So in my particular case for instance on a daily, I can't say about weekly I can tell you, staying in touch with my marketing people, emailing Brokers, emailing investors, following up with people I've had conversations with, especially leads, you know people who use this stuff. A lot of word of mouth and just doing the stuff over and over and over. But it's not like I have a 9:00 to 5:00 now, right? It's not like oh Friday, I'm done and Saturday, Sunday I'm relaxing. I mean I could relax on a Monday now, but Saturday and Sunday I'm working. Right? So that's a good-- but it's like the same as you were doing with your business, right? 

James: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Omar it has been really a pleasure to have you on this podcast. Is there anything that you have never mentioned in other podcasts that you want to mention?

Omar: No James, I don't want to go down that route man. 

James: Is there something that you want to tell, you know people who listen to you that you think that would be a good thing to talk about?

Omar: Yes, what I want to tell people is listen, I don't think you should take words of wisdom for me. But what I should tell people is guys, honestly, I don't listen to a lot of gurus. I would highly suggest that you don't attend any boot camps. Okay, please if you have an education, anything above a high school level, please instead of paying some joker on the internet $25,000 because he's going to become your Mentor, he himself doesn't do any deals to begin with. Okay.

James: Yes. Most of them don't do deals. Right? They just sign other people deals and claim the numbers.

Omar: Yes. It's very easy to basically say I'm an educator. I'm a mentor. I feel like these days anybody who couldn't get a real job or doesn't have a career is certainly a life coach. They're doing coaching or a mentor right? It's [inaudible 56:30] you don't want-- you hear all these people on podcasts. You're hearing James. You hear all the other guests getting interviews and other people, right? It's a lot better for you to reach out to a guy like James or me for instance for that matter, or especially James because he has a track record than to pay some jackass mentor or Guru 25, $30,000. Guys, honestly, if you want to burn your money just send it to me and James. We'll have way better than 25, 30 than some mentor who has no idea what he's doing.

James: Yes, there's so much of knowledge-based nowadays. Right? I mean if you really want to do something, you can definitely do it. You just have to really really want it.

Omar: Yes, don't pay some scammy guy on the internet twenty-five thirty thousand dollars, you know, [inaudible 57:09] we're way better people.

James: Awesome. Awesome. All right. Yes, if you guys want to join us in Multifamily Investors Group in Facebook, there's so much of discussions there so much of data that's being shared. You can learn a lot of things to come there. And I think that's it. Omar, thanks for joining us today.

Omar: Thank you very much for having me. 

James: Before I forget let everybody know how people should be able to reach you.

Omar: Oh, yes. I thought you'd never ask me James. 

James: No, no, sure absolutely go for it.

Omar: So you can reach me Omar, O M A R at Guys, you can also go on to our web page and I made it super simple for people, okay. Anybody, even a dummy can do it. Type your name, type your email address and say how you heard about us and press submit. That's it. You don't got to do anything else. We'll get in touch with you. 

James: All right. Thanks Omar. Thanks for being on the show.

Omar: Take is easy sir. Have a good one. Bye. 

James: Bye.