May 12, 2020
James:
Hey audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve
Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today I
have Rama Krishna from California. Rama has been focusing a lot on
apartment purchases which is averaging around 30 to 40 a units and
at the largest you have done were 59 units. So it's going to be
very interesting especially for a lot of people who are trying to
get into the game and also looking for like high cash flow as well,
you're going to go detail on why sometimes the smaller deals makes
a lot more money than larger deals. So hey Rama, welcome to the
show.
Rama:
Thank you James. Thank you for having me.
James:
And one of the things that we want to talk about apart from going
into Rama's strategies and businesses, we want to go into what
asset manager can do during these Covid19 crisis that has been
happening right now. Hopefully I can publish this podcast as
soon as possible. But I'm sure it's going to be very relevant
because it's going to take a few months for this crisis to subside
I guess, it may take a few more quarters to fully subside. So Rama,
did I miss out anything on your credentials?
Rama:
No, not much I think. So just to kind of re-summarize, I am based
out of California in the corporate Bay area of San Francisco, an IT
professional. So just to recap like 90 seconds. I started like from
real estate two years back started from single family homes and I
always want to actually to do Real Estate but the problem is in Bay
Area, really hot market. I cannot get any cash flow. It's kind of
very hard to find deals and I didn't want to do out of state
because I have a very stressful IT job here. I cannot travel out of
state to do these things. I was postponing doing real estate for so
long time, but three years back kind of pull the trigger, bought my
two single family homes, one in Raleigh and Atlanta, that's where
it started and quickly realized that I cannot scale with single
family homes and got into multifamily, bought eight apartment
complexes between 20 to 80 units. That's a more like a sweet spot
for me. Like doing the deals. We can go further into that. One
thing, we started, we didn't talk before is that construction
projects, two new construction projects, 97 and 92 units in
Raleigh, Durham, North Carolina. So they are like devalue adds,
value adds and the new construction mostly into that existing
apartments and new developments.
James:
Got it. That's very interesting. I think we should just definitely
talk about you and maybe do a separate podcast for the Covid19
asset management because there's so much of information that I want
to get from you and I think the Covid19 thing is also very
important. So that's going to be another podcast maybe before or
after this. So let's go into details; the market that you have been
focusing on that, I know we talk offline before this is Florida,
Kansas City and Ohio, and you are sitting in California. At what
point of your work, you are very stressful IT guy. I mean, I was a
stressful IT guy too. What was that aha moment saying that hey, I
better go buy something else or did you play around with stocks and
realize stocks is not for you? So what was that aha moment that
said that you need to go and focus on buying a multifamily
apartments?
Rama:
So I did two businesses, IT businesses, products and the consulting
business. I did stocks, options and everything. It was a lot
of active businesses, I need to be there, and I am really active,
let’s say if somebody can start restaurants, like franchises, you
need to be there in that actively. So you are there to be part of
the business, then you cannot succeed in that. Even IT businesses
or consulting or product development, everything is active here.
Even where a lot of people have a lot of money from IT as
freelancing or like full time jobs, but the problem is if they stop
going Monday morning they cannot make money. That's the main part
for me to getting into the Real Estate and then I bought these
single family homes, I'm getting like $200, $300 for each single
family home as a cash flow. But then I wanted to scale it, but at
the same time I thought I cannot scale it.
The problem with apartments at the time for me personally living in Bay area, these apartment complexes are so expensive. These are like 20, 30, 40, $50 million. I didn't even know that we can buy a apartment complexes. The two things, kind of the aha moment for me is we can buy apartments as a common man with syndication. Syndication is another thing. I was buying single family homes myself and I know a lot of my friends actually buying single family homes out of state. They buy in Texas, North California; they buy everywhere all the single family homes. But if you combined 10, 20, 30 people combined, we can actually buy larger complexes, larger commercial properties. That was a [05:17unclear] the syndication itself was an aha moment for me.
James:
Was that from someone talking to you or from bigger pockets or
you're talking about syndication or what happened? How did you find
it out?
Rama:
I learned about this syndication with a webinar from Neil Baba, you
know Neil? He was having this weekly or acting monthly multifamily
fundamentals webinar. So two years back in November 2017, I had
this is a webinar from him and the moment that I did the webinar, I
first reached out to him Neil, I want to meet you, this is really
good, this is crazy. Then met in a Starbucks in Fremont and I told
him after this Neil I want to learn this thing. This is exactly
what I wanted to do and he said there's a boot camp coming up. He
would come in February and I said I'm going to sign up on that.
That's when it kind of started, kind of working from single
families to multi families.
James:
Got it. What were the few key things in that discussion with Neil
that you have was like, wow, this is suitable for me. What was your
personal thing that you think that oh, this is very interesting for
me. What are the aspects of syndication that was very attractive to
you that you think [06:40unclear].
Rama:
Three things, Oral apartments is a kind of a scale in the single
family home model that what I'm thinking. I know the real estate
passive income, but then I cannot buy a hundred, 200, 300 single
family homes. The first thing is scale. The second thing is run as
a business, like I did my IT businesses before. So apartments is
also a business, you need to increase your income, decrease your
expenses, and then efficiently run your operations. Make sure that
you know everything like people management and you talk to your
property managers and investors and your brokers and seeing like
identifying this analysis, everything. Run it as a business. Third
thing aspect is a syndication model itself. I have like hundreds of
friends here and other acquaintances, old colleagues, a lot of
people are high net worth individuals. If I can prove myself in
this business, I can definitely syndicate and raise capital. So
those are the three main aspects for me that kind of struck the
card when was talking to him and also the fundamental thing, hey we
can buy larger complexes like this. Like I was not even imagining
the common man can buy apartments. Those are the three main
aspects.
James:
Got it. So now you're sitting in California, after you talk to Neil
you come out and you already go to his boot camp. Why you went from
California to Florida, Kansas City and Ohio? Which deal did you buy
for us? Which state was that?
Rama:
For my multifamily?
James:
Yeah. Multifamily.
Rama:
The first five deals, I bought it in Jacksonville,
Florida.
James:
Okay. Why Jacksonville, Florida? Why not Las Vegas or Utah or
Texas? Or is it just that you landed there by luck?
Rama:
So I want to actually buy a multifamily in Raleigh, Durham and
Atlanta because that's where I started. When I started researching
about markets for my single family homes, with all the research I
did, I picked these two markets, Raleigh and Durham.
James:
Okay. What are the things you saw in Raleigh, Durham and
Atlanta that were like awesome [08:49unclear].
Rama:
Some of it I think was I'm reading all the articles and reading all
the articles and everything with the technology stuff happening
also there and jobs moving in, I didn't actually connect the dots
at the time, When I did the boot camp from Neil then I was able to
connect the dots and say hey, these are good markets. Then I was
started offering on deals in North Carolina and Atlanta. Like none
of them were pencilling out, like what is this? Even two, three
years back it's not working out. I can't imagine now, maybe like
with Corona, it's never kind of worked out for me because I never
purchased in the last three years. When I started multifamily again
I started looking into these two markets, Raleigh, Durham and
Atlanta. I was offering ton of properties. I visited brokers’
network. Either the deals are like C minus, really bad locations or
bad tenant profile. The income is bad, which numbers are working on
but the thing is I don't know how to do the deals there or it's too
expensive where it just didn't work out for me.
The vision for Jacksonville is when I was trying to expand markets from single family homes, I was looking at Austin and somehow actually got into Jacksonville because of the property manager or the property manager was actually offering, they do turnkey single families home as well. So I was talking to them doing due diligence, everything with them and making sure what kind of deal on single family homes that they can help me on, on rehabbing and the stuff. Then I suddenly like after talking to Neil, I said, guys, I'm not interested in single families. No, we have deals, this is like 60k and we have this 140k [10:39unclear] but they said okay we'll help you in multifamily as well. Let me know if you find any deals. We'll help you manage. That's when Jacksonville started and then they also kind of helped you and due diligence and everything. Then we'll look at a few deals together and we bought this 20 unit deal and that was on market actually, but it's the heavy lifting stuff like the roofs are bad, two, three units are down; it's really heavy lifting. I thought, okay, let me just get into it. The twenty unit is most like a cost of a one condo here.
James:
Looks so cheap when you look at California?
Rama:
You know what I'm going to lose here, let me try it out but we made
really good money on that. So definitely that's the good, I got the
money from my friends and family first, not as syndication. It's
more like a joint venture. A lot of my small multifamily is a joint
venture. We can go into details how we've structured those. So that
was very good deal. Look back right now. We did that and then
quickly since I liked the market, I kind of learned about
Jacksonville more. The more I know it's like a really hot market,
then the found more deals in the end of that eight months to nine
months and then they all are smaller, 20, 30, 12, 32 to 59.
James:
Syndication. I mean syndication; you can put larger money and buy a
hundred plus unit or like some gurus say by start with a hundred
plus. Why did you start with 20 and 30? And what is the driving
motivation for that?
Rama:
Neil actually encourages to start with small, he never said go more
than a hundred units, but I'm part of a team of multifamily Mark
Kinney. He suggest only a hundred plus units because of several
reasons because you're putting effort on a 20 unit, it's the same
as 200 units, go hundred plus. I totally believe it from a
mentorship perspective, he's different. I did that because when I
did my eight LLC taxes for last year and all the administrative
work that goes behind these things. I would totally agree with Mark
and also any other gurus out there that say go hundred plus
units. I totally agree on that from effort standpoint. But there is
money to be made in this 4,200 unit space as well. And a lot of
people ignore it. There is definitely a possibility that you can
put your operations hat there and your creative hat there to see
how you can profit from it. You also know from the investor
perspective as well.
James:
Yeah correct. I started with the 45 units and I really love it just
because you really learn a lot from smaller deals and you don't
have to go much bigger deal and you forget, you cannot be like
skipping elementary school and middle school and try to go direct
to high school. I mean you can do it once in a while or when the
market's so good but the fundamentals of real estate is really
learned on the smaller deals, even with single family. You start
with single family and you move to the smaller deals.
Rama:
There are pros and cons. For example, the pros are you don't need
to have payroll. The con is also the same thing. You don't have a
staff and then your property manager may be sitting in some
downtown office somewhere. They don't know what's happening at the
20 units or forty units. So you need to have very kind of a good
property manager, even for a hundred plus units also you need a
good property manager, but at least you have staff. If you can talk
to them, hey, what's going on? Because the regional might not be at
the site all the time. The regional might be like going once in a
month, once in 10 days, whatever.
But you have a staff day you can talk to, hey, what's going on
leasing, what are the foot traffic? What are other strategies that
you have always or do you have going on these units? Have you did
the make ready? All of these things. There is a
long [14:38unclear] clean you can talk to someone. But if
there is a 59 unit somewhere in the west side of Jacksonville and
my property managers sitting on downtown, they don't even know the
pool guy's coming, they don't know that the lawn is not cut for the
last two months. So there is good and bad, especially if you're
doing out of state property manager, no asset management. That
would be more difficult. But there are ways to mitigate
that. Have a local partner in your deal that is onsite, on the
ground goes once in a week or so.
James:
Did you have a local partner there?
Rama:
One in Jacksonville but not in Kansas City
and [15:2unclear] but now Jacksonville, I have changed my
property managers, she's really hands on and she actually sits in
one of our office. Jacksonville Unit has an office actually. So
she's really good and now I can think of acquiring more properties
in Jackson, I was thinking not be acquired more. But if you have
really good property manager who is hands and kind of trustworthy,
then you can definitely; these are really cash cows.
James:
Yeah. I mean the people play the most important aspect in property
management. It's a people business. So once you find a really good
people, you are motivated.
Rama:
You are local or have a partner locally in the 40 to 80 unit game
and it's definitely worthwhile to [16:08unclear].
James:
Because it's not many people look at that space. I mean, the market
was so hot right before, pre-Corona, I would say. Now we have to
talk about pre-Corona and post-Corona.
Pre-Corona is so much of capital looking for deal and everybody
just buy the bigger deals.
Rama:
Yeah, I do buy the deals in the three bands, James like 40 to 80,
80 to 160 and 160 above. 40 to 80 is where I do kind of deals with
mostly JBS and then also syndicate patients deal where you don't
need an onsite staff, we can operationalize and make sure that
let's say if you have multiple 40 to 80 deals in the same market,
you can actually have some scale within that. Have a maintenance
person who I only see for properties. So 80 to 160 units where our
focus primarily from a syndication perspective when we can have
staff. 160 plus is an institutional level where the different
companies move there, which I'm not going right now. But I would
love to go 160 plus.
James:
160 plus, okay. I think that still does not
answer [17:16unclear].
Rama:
[17:17unclear] but at least you have a different set
up [17:20unclear]
James:
Different level of people. Yeah, professional investors I would say
maybe. That's good. Yeah. I mean so how did you structure this JB
on the smaller side? Because you really don't have to do
syndication for everything, I mean, if you have a few guys who are
your family and friends who are willing to put some large money,
you can just do a JB and explain to the audience how did you do
that JB and syndication.
Rama:
Yeah, even if it is JV, I would want someone like they do perform
some tasks. It's not that, you know, hey, like it's a JB and I'll
do all the work. They allow us to have to do some work on that.
Because they all structure James two options here. One, either I
put less money and they put more money and everybody will have an
equal share. Let's say I'm giving very rough example. I bought 50K
and other people put 100K each or 200K each, whatever it is. And
each of the 3% will be attached to person of
the [18:15unclear].
James:
Got it.
Rama:
That's one option. The second option is I've also put 100K but all
three people will put 100K into the deal, but I get 50%. They both
get 25%. It's just very high level examples.
Either I put less money in and take an equal percentage with the
other investors or I put more money and take higher percentage. But
same money as others.
James:
All these deals you're buying in these different cities is it all
value add or de-value add or cash flowing? How's that?
Rama:
Most are value add as some are de-value adds as well. I'm kind of
going away cookie cutter stuff, but the cookie cutter stuff, I'd
still do it. But for the long-term part. That is more kind of
relevant for a JV structure because for syndication I need to
perform two to five years, I need to exhibit. But if I find a deal,
which is really kind of a long-term goal and that is also good for
this model where I don't need to worry about performing something
in three to five years, I can even take a bridge loan and refinance
it and keep it for longer term to the cash flow that's fine. If you
don't get to cash flow, that's also fine. At least you can get all
the rehab money from the lender and renovate it fully and then go
to a permanent loan and keep it for like another six to eight years
or 10 years.
James:
Do you finance with the bridge loan in the beginning
itself?
Rama:
Yes. Yeah. Half of the loans I deal with now are bridge
loans.
James:
Okay.
Rama:
Half of them are Freddie Mac. But see this is a de-value add. I
know I can get all the rehab budget from the bridge loan.
James:
Yeah, correct. De-value adds make sense for...
Rama:
And then refinance it.
James:
Got it.
Rama:
So it's like kind of a cookie cutter or a little bit like value
adds, I go with Freddie Mac loans.
James:
Got it. Yeah. I mean the smaller ones has less competition.
Sometimes you make a lot more money because there's no payroll and
some people like my 45 units people just like to stay in a smaller
community because they don't like bigger and the people, a lot of
residents like a smaller communities, they don't need all these
amenities. They just say we want housing.
Rama:
Yeah that's true and another trend is happening, the build to rent.
They're doing a medium density bill to rent the whole complex is
for Randwick. So they built a town home complex or a single family
home complex only for rent because we will be rendered national for
some, and especially this post-Corona, it will be delayed like
three more years, people will not be looking at home ownership. But
at the same time, they don't want to live in apartments. They can
live in a town home community or the kind of a little bit less
density, a single family home community, maybe more density, single
family home community. They're okay with that, right? Because they
still have the pride of ownership. You have a better tenant profile
and they can also feel that they're living in a regular home than
an apartment complex. So the build to rent a town home and a single
family home concept is growing as well.
James:
So let's say you get a deal; every day you get a deal right now, I
mean you're getting into brokers I presume. So what are the sniff
test do you do on the deal? Because sometimes they list too many
deals?
Rama:
Yeah. I have my 60 seconds rule, 60 minutes rule and I don't know,
60 days like I see the more you go, you're going to spend more time
on this deal. So the first thing I do is go to the justice map or
CoStar just to see them demographics. For what is the median
income and demographics mix on this and how the income is growing
in this area. If that is a bad area I just...
James:
So every deal, the 62nd is that few steps go to CoStar.
Rama:
Yes first go to; no, I don't need the CoStar, District Map is free.
Just go to justicemap.org, just put that address.
James:
What's that website called?
Rama:
Justicemap.org.
James:
Oh justice map, yeah, justicemap.org.
Rama:
Just go to that, put the address you will see the census block.
What is the median income, what is the demographics mix and how the
income is changing. Then you will see the first sniff test and then
I'll see the rents. Nowadays what I'm seeing is the average rent,
like around $750 or about; I'm not going to C minus, C property, C
plus or B. So I can quickly take a deal out, 60 seconds or less.
And then next step will be go to the bond writing and see what the
rent projections are, go to Rentometer or any other, I can go
CoStar or Rentometer and see what are the rents. Are they below the
market or not because I don't care about the rent growth, what
happened in the next five, six years, what is in place rents and
what I can achieve the market. That is where I focus. Let's say if
it is $75, $150, $200 below, then definitely if it's like a C plus,
B area, 45K or 40K median income and the demographics mix is good
and everything, then I definitely go to the next level and
traditional spend six days or not. Then to go to the 60
days.
James:
That's probably including the best and final and all that.
Rama:
Yeah every step that you go 60 seconds, 60 minutes, 60 days you're
going to waste your time, effort, money on a deal. You need to talk
to programs you need to visit, it adds up the cost, time and
effort, energy.
James:
Yeah. It's crazy how much work you have to do on progressively. So
is there a lot of competition even on the smaller deals?
Rama:
There will be. Yeah. And it sounds especially previously that
lasted two years, this competition for everything. But the 40 to 80
unit spaces, James, the smaller people cannot buy those and they
still want a track record and know everything. They don't want to
give it the deal to anyone. The bigger people are not interested in
this because and the same thing that you said it's too much
work. Definitely there will be competition but if you do a JV
structure and especially you can do a long-term goal or maybe a
tentative exchange because on a largest syndication it'd be 20, 30,
40 people. It's going to difficult to convince everyone, hey, let's
do a 10, 31 exchange. So on a smaller deal if I get a 42 unit I
know the JV people, like we have five people, so once we got a
bridge loan, we renovate, and we’ll sell. Say if somebody wants to
know by this thing, we have a bigger pool of money in the pot for
the 10, 31 now we can from 42 units they can go to 80 units and
then they can move to 160 units. I can spin off three fourth, 10-31
exchanges like that and quickly it can go from 200 to 800 units
within two to three years or four years.
James:
That's interesting. You can start from small and just doing 10 31
and start increasing.
Rama:
Exactly, on syndication it's not kind of very difficult. I have 40
investors, like half of them, hey, I need my money back. I let them
say, let's just enter the one. Okay. Then it'll be difficult to
coordinate this.
James:
Oh, right. Interesting. Yeah. I never done a 10 31 exchange up
until now because I don't prefer it so much because I'm worried
that it costs me to buy the wrong deals. Because all sellers love
10-31 buyers.
Rama:
TO be active, don't disclose that you're a 10-31 buyer. Have those
deal flow, you need to be really active. Every time I have four to
five, six deals, then I can pick the right one. Hey, I'm not going
to go wrong on this because it's a B property, eighties
construction. What are the criteria that you have? The rents are
like a hundred dollars lower. I'm okay to even or pay 100K - 200K
on this because on the 10-31 you want to certain the deal, you want
certain to close it. So picking the right property and make sure
you're doing the due diligence and then do the 10-31 because yeah.
So worst case, you'd pay taxes and it's not like another wall. It's
better than going in the bad deal.
James:
Correct. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So tell me about
your value add strategy. Do you do interior, exterior and from deck
and you define what's the most valuable value add that you have
seen?
Rama:
No, I do de-value add, like if the roofs are leaking, like falling
down we get a new roof and completely renovating the units to
top-notch, [26:57unclear] dollars also into the C
properties. I think the thing is weird to see the holistic picture.
There is no one specific thing that I do, which is the most value
add, just turning it on the property to create the maximum value
out of this. Like if it is a exceeded deferred maintenance, the
problem with deferred maintenance is you don't get any rent bump if
I change my roof. But you need to make sure that you negotiate the
deal. Okay. Hey, this has a roof issue and if you're paying the
market price, but for a de-value add that doesn't make sense. If
there is an exterior deferred maintenance I would love to know
everything in place and only do the interior value add. That
is the best thing to do if I can get, but I'm not afraid of
de-value adds. I did full redevelopments also I'm doing new
construction as well, so whatever the maximum value that you can
out of the property on the rent. That is what I looked into
it.
James:
Got it. So that's very interesting. So tell me about yourself. I
mean so you are an engineer and you are doing real estate right
now, where do you see yourself in the next five to 10 years?
Pre-Corona or post-Corona?
Rama:
If we didn't have the same conversation January James, I was
thinking I would retire in 2020. Like I had two deals. I was about
to go under contract at backdoor on one day I was at the deal also
I'm at 80% on the fence to back out. Completely changes. So things
like this, you go back to the square one, go back to the drawing
board or go back to school. . Then rethink your strategies. Yeah,
definitely. De-value adds and new construction. I want to get
maximum value out of it. Cookie cutter. I'm like mostly ignoring,
but if I can do long-term goal, I'm okay with cookie cutter. If not
that I can get out three to five years and do this like kind of
churn. It's just a lot of work. A lot of people think when
you're just come into syndication or a multifamily, it is a passive
income. This is not passive income at all, like zero. For
investors, yes. So I would continue doing what I'm doing, but it'd
be more conservative. The new rules. The rules have
changed.
James:
The rules have changed. Yeah.
Rama:
The playing field changed. The game is changed. Everything is
changed. But the fundamentals remain the same. We will be renters’
nation. The multifamily will not go away. People need place to
live. The next one year will be a little bit at least six months to
one year. It will be tough in the operations perspective, fully
focusing on operations on what I have and I'll continue the story,
but the story now will be much better. You will see what is the
need for passive income now you know better. Things might change.
People are getting laid off. So you need to get your passive income
streams. The story becomes stronger now and nothing changed in that
perspective.
James:
Correct. Correct. Also in the stocks market you can lose your
money, but in a brick and mortar real estate, you don't really lose
the money.
Rama:
The capital is reserved, you have a hard asset. You can go and
touch, feel it, and then that's not going anywhere. You might have
instead of 8% returns, you might have 2% returns or 1% returns, at
least your capital is reserved. Stock markets you're bidding down
like crazy there. You're losing half of your money or more than
half of your money. So the story got better and maybe easier to
pass on this thing. But there might be challenges raising capital
in the next few months because people might have lost money in
stock or lost their job, whatever it is. But eventually it
will come back. The people will remember this. They know the value
of passive income more than before. I'll continue the value adds,
the de-value adds and new construction strategies into the
multifamily.
James:
Got it. Is there a proud moment in your life that you think you're
really, really proud that you cannot forget? I mean, until now, I
mean, of course you're going to do a lot more things right, but
until now when you started this business.
Rama:
Yeah. The first 20 unit deal, when we actually renovated this
thing, I really felt happy. It was actually really bad property.
The roofs were really leaking and everything; the tenants were bad,
the backyard, everything was all trashed and completely, we
re-profiled this thing. We did maybe more than 70% returns on that.
The manufacturer, that's one thing. Overall the transformation that
you do kind of really was proud moment for me and also the land
development deals that I'm doing. It was 18 months of effort for us
to get these 97 units a town home project, we closed it in
February. So I was really proud of that new development
site.
James:
Got it. So you're like moving from one domain to another domain.
That must be a happy moment. Why did you move to
development?
Rama:
As I said, I like this North Carolina, Austin, Atlanta hot markets
because I would rather do it in this market, but there are no deals
out there in a sense too expensive. You know Austin? All seventies
and eighties property itself is so expensive. I would rather build
new but there are unknowns. There are risks for new construction.
It's not that easy to hazard zone.
James:
[32:54unclear] building, if it's [32:57unclear].
Rama:
Everybody will be building, it has its own staff but overall I want
to be patient to find the right deals and find the right
construction partners, find the right type of investors. Not
everybody will be interested in new development. You want cash
flow. You're not going to get cash flow. There are a lot of risk
also. You might lose your capital also in that because there are no
assets.
James:
You have to go to so many entitlement process and city approvals
and all that.
Rama:
Exactly, there are red tapes involved, there are so many things
involved but I would in a market like Austin or North Carolina I
would rather to build than buy a seventies or eighties product.
That was the main reason for me to get into new development because
I liked the market, what I can do in this market because I love
North Carolina, I love Austin, I love North Atlanta. What I can do
in these markets from a Real Estate perspective, the only answer
for me is the new development.
James:
Got it. Interesting. So tell our audience how to get hold of
you?
Rama:
Yeah, you can reach out on my website is zovest.com; you can reach
out at rama@zovest.com and I'm active in a lot of Facebook groups,
you can reach out to me there as well.
James:
Awesome. Thanks Rama for coming in. Happy to have you here and
happy that you add a lot of value to our listeners. Thank
you.
Rama:
Thank you, James. Thank you for having me.