Apr 21, 2020
James:
Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve
Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing. Today, I've Cody
Payne and Michael Tran from Colliers International out of
Dallas market. Hey guys, why don't you say hi to our audience and
why don't you introduce what you guys do?
Michael:
Oh, Hey everybody. Michael here. You know, we focus mainly on
multitenant, mid-rise office buildings or industrial buildings or
industrial parks. Anything between three to 25 mil is our typical
range that we work on.
Cody:
And I'm Cody Payne and I work with Michael and that pretty much
sums it up pretty well. We sell investment office and industrial
buildings in Dallas Fort Worth.
James:
Got it, got it. So you guys are brokers, right? Do you own any of
these as well?
Cody:
Yeah, actually we do, we actually just did a syndication not long
ago where we pulled together a few investors and bought a portfolio
of five office buildings down the mid-cities. And we've even done
some development also.
James:
Got it. So office and industrial; nobody has talked about this
asset class in the show. So I want to go really deep into how
people make money out of this asset class because I'm a multifamily
guy. I'm so used to multifamily and a lot of people knows
multifamily very well. It's like seems to be like the only asset
class out there. Right? But I'm sure there's a lot of people out
there who's killing it in industrial and office. Right? So, I want
to go deep into, you know, how an active investor would look at
these two asset classes and you guys absolutely will be you know,
giving a lot of value in this discussion. So let's start with
industrial. Can we define what is an industrial asset class and how
does it look like when I drive by, how can I say this is industrial
and is there any different types of industrial that I need to be
aware of when I drive by and when I'm going to look at
something?
Cody:
Yeah, absolutely. So industrial is going to be, you know, your big
box, tall, concrete warehouses that you'll see as you're driving
along the freeway or in some other parts. These things can range
anywhere from tenants utilizing just a couple thousand square feet
up to a large shipping receiving warehouse that you'll see, that
can be half a million-million square feet. A lot of things that I
think a lot of people are familiar with is, seeing those tall, 24
36 foot tall concrete structures where a lot of 18 wheelers are
backed up to that are loading, unloading, cross-docking and things
of that nature. That's what your typical image of a warehouse
industrial is. And a lot of people look for that and that's one of
the key asset classes that a lot of investors are looking for right
now.
James:
Well, so you said a lot of investors, I mean, it's a very relative
term, right? And I'm not sure you guys know how much people invest
in multifamily. So is that same equal in people investing in
industrial and office or is it like coming from your knowledge in a
multifamily is like crazily too many people and industrial is like
a niche [03:26unclear] ?
Cody:
So the office and industrial it is a little more niche. I wouldn't
say there's as many buyers for it as there is for multifamily. I
mean, you, obviously there's a lot more multi-families than there
are mid-rise office buildings, especially out here in Dallas, Fort
Worth and even in Texas as a whole. But it's very niche specific.
And so, that's why a lot of times you'll see a multifamily guy
refer out if someone's looking at buying an office building or even
vice versa. Because we won't sell a multifamily complex just
because we're not as aware of it but the buyer pool is still very
good. We get a lot of multifamily people, especially over the past
three, four or five years, that have really started to hone in on
the office industrial market as compared to my 10 years prior to
that.
James:
Got it. Got it. Yeah. Even in my book, I mentioned that, you know,
all these asset classes, they are somebody who's really good at
these asset classes. And a lot of passive investors just look to,
you know, seek to this kind of operators who are really good at
industrial office or multifamily. There are people who specialize
in this and they're really, really good at it so they have to seek
for that operators. So that's good to know. It's very niche market.
So, coming back to industrial, how do I identify a sub-market...how
do I find an industrial, which is a really good, in terms of
location, how do I say if I look at this building, I can say that
this building is in a really good industrial location. How do I say
that? What are the factors I need to look at?
Michael:
You know, one of the main ones nowadays is access. A lot of the
logistics chains, they kind of make sure they can get the 18
wheelers in there, parked. That's why a lot of the users that are
looking out that way, they're always making sure that they're
centralized too. So like, let's say the great Southwest district
here just South of DFW Airport; that's one of the biggest
industrial hubs over here, you can get to almost any part of the
metroplex within 20 to 30 minutes max. And then you'll have
Alliance, which is in North Fortworth. I think that's a sleeper
town that a lot of people overlook here but they're just building
more and more bigger boxes up there. And it's due to 35 West
Highway that goes all the way down to Austin, even down where you
guys are at. So that's become another major hub press as well. And
FedEx, Amazon they're all up that way. And you've got little
pockets up in Plano as well which is probably about 30 minutes from
the airport and they've got some major like Toyota is looking to
move up that way. And they've got everybody else just following
them over here.
James:
So do you look at, like for example, in multifamily, we look at
household demographic, we look at median household income and
income growth, job growth and all that. But it looks like
industrial is different, I guess. Like you have to look at how
convenient it is for the 18 wheelers to meet and compare and also
seems to be some kind of adjacency with the certain key
distributors like Amazon or Toyota. So is that key factors, I
presume?
Cody:
Yeah, absolutely. And actually, we've got a map behind
us.
James:
So those who are on YouTube, you can definitely see the map.
Cody:
Yeah.
James:
To really, you know, talk numbers in terms of what?
Cody:
Just as the Dallas Fortworth airport right here. And this is the
great South West district that Michael was talking about. This is
where you'll have a lot of warehousing and a lot of it up North as
well. Amazon's got a large center as well. So you've kind of have
the same thing, which is growing a lot out here where Hillwood has
their Alliance airport. And then the same thing back over here
where Dallas load field is, there's a lot of warehouses over there
and there's a lot off limits. So you know, a lot of these guys
where we see a lot of tenant velocity and things of that nature are
going to be closest to the airports because
that [07:49unclear] Fortworth because here and
going to Fortworth and go to Dallas and go South and go North and
they can receive from one of the largest airports in the world
right here.
James:
Got it. So it's basically access to the airport and access to the
highway and how can we get to go to other big cities, I guess,
right? Fortworth, Austin.
Cody:
And they don't necessarily need highway visibility cause that's
your most expensive parcel of land, but they need good access to
it. And so having that nearby that airport, they've got access to
I-20, I-30, 183, 360, and so that's a really good hub. And that's
why that district is such a large district and continues to
expand.
James:
Is there like a park, like an industrial park where the city or the
government is allocated or is it like, is there random
everywhere?
Cody:
They're more spread out.
James:
So there is no like tax incentive offered by any government or any
cities, I guess.
Cody:
Well, yeah, certain cities will offer certain tax incentives. I
know Dallas offers quite a few in certain areas and even if you
start getting into like the opportunities zone areas and things of
that nature.
James:
Got it. Got it. Got it. So, you talk in terms of industrial, in
terms of square footage, right? That's what you said, or square
footage and access, access is also an amenity. But I presume, what
is the average price per square feet in terms of industrial
buildings?
Michael:
So that is a very good question cause those can actually range
anywhere between 50 a foot all the way up to, you know, building
new. It also depends on the age of the building, ceiling
height, [09:39unclear] in the building. So there's a lot
of factors in industrial that you have to account for. How many
docks as well. Dock high, grade level doors or are you familiar
with any of these terms?
James:
No, no. This is all completely new. But it's important. I want you
guys to share that level of detail because I want people to really
learn how do you, cause I'm going to go to their underwriting later
on. So that's going to features of the industrial, is that like a
class A, class B, class C industrial buildings?
Cody:
Absolutely. Go over some of the rates that you see on some...
James:
Yeah. What are the class As?
Cody:
Are you asking for rental rates?
James:
Rental rates and also buildings, right. I presume that's all
correlated?
Michael:
Yeah. So rental rates, you'll see anything, depending, like I said,
very niche-specific stuff. So like you'll see anything from $4 a
foot all the way up to 10 and sometimes even higher and triple net
or some of the newer industrial products coming out. And then you
have if it's, you know, if it's in the less desirable area, they'll
Teeter with the four to seven modified gross or industrial gross as
you'll hear. And those usually have some expenses in there that are
charged back to the tenant. As for space, if the space is less
desirable, you're going to see more of that industrial gross number
anywhere between, you know, five to seven. Newer stuff, like I
said, $10, sometimes triple net, just depending on area and
access.
Cody:
And a lot of times is that building size gets larger, that rental
rate, well a lot of times go down.
James:
Okay. Okay. So before we probably go further, can you define
triple-net because a lot of people in the residential stage, they
are not used to this triple net. Can you define triple net, what
does it mean?
Michael:
Yeah. So if you can ever in residential, try to charge them triple
net. But when I was saying it's a triple net, basically it's taxes,
insurance, and common area maintenance is charged back to
your [11:46unclear] Sometimes you can get an absolute
triple-net deal and that's where the tenant also care of the roof
and structure. It's not as common in industrial unless it's a
single-tenant deal, but most of the time you're going to see this
regular triple nets.
James:
Okay. Right. Interesting. Because we don't have that in
multifamily. That'd be awesome. So triple net also means that
if the property taxes go up, the landlord doesn't get any impact.
We still get the rents that we supposed to get, I guess.
Michael:
That's correct. And sometimes, you know, your tenant, if they're a
little more savvy they'll have like a protection on no higher
increase in five to 10% on their common area maintenance or taxes.
So let's say like your lawn guy wants to charge you way more,
that'll force you to just find a new one at a more reasonable
price.
James:
Got it. Got it. Got it. So what is the landlord responsible for
then?
Michael:
Roof and parking lot. Structuring the building if it's triple net.
Yeah.
James:
So does the landlord still get the tax benefits of owning the real
estate? I'm presume so, right? Because you own the building, you
own the roof and you own the real estate, I guess, right?
Cody:
Yes. So, well it depends on the tax benefits that they're getting,
but if it's, you know, ownership of the real estate tax benefits,
yes. Now if it's business-related or some of that nature, that's
for them, obviously.
James:
Correct. Correct, correct. And I think the depreciation schedule
for industrial and an office, I just want to cover that, is 39 and
a half. Is that right if I'm not mistaken.
Cody:
I believe you're correct.
James:
I think in residential it's 27.5 and all of the asset classes
like 39 or 39.5, I can't remember. But that's a good distinction
within triple net and the normal deals that we buy in multifamily.
So, coming back to my question, I know we talked about different
rental rates, but are there any classes that you guys have
categorized in terms of industrial buildings? So it's just based on
how old they are and there's no real definition...
Cody:
Yeah. So they do have classes, you've got B, you've got C, you've
got A class and a lot of times that is determined by age and
location and building quality and things of that nature.
James:
Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it, got it. But definitely have to be in
some way accessible near to their distribution part I would say, or
distribution hub. I guess
Cody:
That's when a lot of them like it, they are very keen on location.
But like I said, I didn't have to have highway frontage. In
that access is very key.
James:
Okay. What about the, who buys the industrial? I want to interview
a buyer of industrial parks and industrial buildings and I can
never find, but you guys know all these guys, but who buys...what
are the typical buyer characteristics or where does it come from?
What does he look for? What is his appetite in terms of investment
whenever they buy these industrial buildings?
Cody:
Absolutely. So there's a lot of buyers for industrial and they
increase every day. And you know, even for the small Bay
warehouses, you know, we have so many of those people that keep
pouring into the marketplace and not just Texas, but in the US as a
whole. But yeah, I mean industrial probably gets some of the most
cross product or cross asset buyers that we've got. You know,
people from self-storage buy these, people retail, past experience,
they buy these. We even have apartment owners and operators buy
these. But you know, there's a lot of REITs and institutions and
things of that nature that are big in it. But no, a lot of, I would
say the past 10 industrial buildings that we sold, probably I
think, I want to say seven of those were an out of state
owners.
James:
Got it. Are they from coastal city? Like New York and California?
Are they local?
Cody:
Yeah. Canada, Florida, Chicago, absolutely.
James:
And do you see that this one guy buying across the nation or it's
still very localized?
Cody:
No, a lot of these people will buy across the nation, but this is a
market that a lot of these people will look into.
James:
Texas, they like a lot of Texas?
Cody:
Oh absolutely. Yeah. And like Michael was saying, you know,
because of the Dallas Fortworth economy and things of that nature,
it gets a lot of eyes.
James:
Got it. Very interesting. So, let's go back to underwriting and
industrial building. So I presume that's a rental of the building
where the tenants...is it like usually one tenant or is it like
multiple tenants or how does that or is it all the 17-wheelers
parking need to pay rent?
Cody:
Yeah, it can be one tenant. We just sold a very large complex off
of 360 and about 80 tenants in it. So, it can be very, very intense
with a lot of tenants. And I think the group that bought that had a
lot of multifamily experience as well.
James:
So 80 tenants in one building. I mean, do they have like counters
in it or do they have docks?
Cody:
Yeah, so it was a bunch of buildings in a business park and so it
was about 22 of them. And so it was just park.
James:
So it's like an industrial park where everybody had buildings and
they ran the...
Cody:
Yeah, they had their own suites and things of that nature.
James:
Okay. So if it's triple net then probably there's nothing to do
with expense ratio for a landlord. Right, because you get
[17:30 crosstalk]
Cody:
One of those, I believe, were on gross leases still, but with
industrial, a lot of people that aren't on triple net are going
that way.
James:
Okay. Explain what's the difference between gross lease and triple
net?
Cody:
So a gross lease, you'll find a lot more in office, in general
office. You will absolutely find it in an industrial and gross
lease is going to be where the landlord's taking on commonary
maintenance, landscaping, repairs and maintenance, you know, HVAC,
things of that nature. And so it's more management intensive. Your
expenses on the landlord are going to be higher and that's a gross
lease. But then you start getting into other types of leases. You
know, you've got full service, you got gross, you've got modified
gross and you get into like net, double net, triple net.
James:
Oh, okay. And what about full service? As you mentioned, because
I've seen
Cody:
So full service, you're really only going to see that in office.
And what I mean by that is landlord pays everything. They pay the
utilities, they pay the janitorial, they pay the common area
maintenance, they pay taxes, insurance, they cover everything. A
tenant goes in as you know, a price per square foot and that's all
they pay.
James:
Got it. Got it. Very interesting. So let's go to office. I mean in
general, people are worried about office. Because you know, people
say the trend is working from home. So is that still
true?
Cody:
Not here.
James:
Not probably in Dallas, I guess.
Cody:
No. I think office is actually trending a lot more towards
coworking and things of that nature. And that's a model that has
just expanded and blown up like crazy, especially out here in
Dallas, Fortworth.
James:
So what is a typical investor who's looking to buy office space,
office buildings? Where do they come from, what do they look for in
an office? What kind of hold time do they have usually?
Michael:
Yeah. So their hold time can range anywhere between five and seven
years. But you know, we just did a major value-add project in Plano
where Toyota's headquarters is. State Farm had moved out and it was
probably 20% occupied. That buyer actually, you know, did a bridge
loan and he's going to go ahead and get that filled up very
quickly, just cause the area's occupancy is not any lower than 80,
85%. But where these buyers come from, same thing as the industrial
guys, cause a lot of industrial buyers also look at office and
office guys look at industrial as well. But like I was telling you
the other day on the phone, we've noticed a huge influx of
multifamily buyers moving into office just because the returns are
a little higher. And so, we had like that last guy, California
we've got one in Chicago looking at one of our deals right now.
We've got a couple of local groups out here that know these office
buildings really well too and they know the trends of the area and
how the occupancy is. So one specifically we're working on right
near White Rock Lake in Dallas. That one's at 92, 93%, and that
one's always been full ever since anybody can remember. So that's
where these buyers come from. Any other questions?
James:
Yeah. How do you decide this office space is in a good location?
Other than knowing, I know Plano is hard and I know free score is
hard, but how, what are the parameters you look for in terms of
like like you know, jobs growth in that particular submarket?
Michael:
So, yeah, so you look for competition within the area for
that office building, comparables in that market to the building
because if you know the market really well and you know every
building, you'll see that some gives you like a better bang for
your buck. You know, some will have a lot of amenities that they're
starting to offer. [21:48unclear] groups are
starting to do incubator spaces where they have a smaller coworking
model and then their tenants will grow into spaces that are
available in their building that they have rooms. And so they'll
convert, you know, a small executive office and they can charge
anywhere, you know, 35 to $45 per square foot just for a room. And
as that tenant grows, they can grow within the building. But if you
want to look at like specific markets like Las Colinas Irving area,
are you familiar with that area?
James:
Yeah.
Michael:
Yeah. So you know that area has a lot of office and that's one
thing you need to make sure of when you're looking at a deal. How
many other class B or class A properties can your tenants look at
before they commit to a space? But if you're looking over in
Dallas, like where White Rock is, our building is the only building
for the next two or three miles before you hit a highway, either
going towards 75 or going North towards 635. And so that's why this
building has been able to capture a lot of the people who don't
want to drive all the way to 75 and fight that traffic every day or
drive North on 635 and fight with that traffic as well.
James:
So you probably look at a cost, what the VPD, vehicle per day drive
on that nearby highway, I guess. And I think you probably...I mean,
as you mentioned, you look at other office supply in that area and
I'm presuming you look at vacancy rate as well, on nearby office.
And what tool do you use? Is it CoStar that you guys is primary for
this industrial and office?
Cody:
Yeah. So there's a lot of tools you can use CoStar and Craxi and
things of that nature. There's a lot of, you know, real capital
analytics as well. They track a lot of good stuff. What I would
also say on the office side is it's probably one of the product
types. It's a little closer to multifamily as far as kind of a how
to make them successful and things of that nature. Because, you
know, when people go look at a multifamily complex, they usually
have a couple options. And so a lot of times what they'll look at
is amenities, access, recent renovations, things of that nature.
What can they do for me on a new move in? And so office is very
much a model that is driven just like multifamily. And so, keeping
up with the times, making sure the renovations are good, making
sure the building offers things like the deli or wifi and stuff of
that nature or coworking style environment. Those things all help
office buildings succeed.
James:
Got it. And what about this vacancy rate? Cause sometimes they're
not...I mean multi-families and people that need a place to leave
and vacancies are pretty low I guess comparatively to office, I
mean different tenant profile. Right. So what is the average
vacancy rate? I mean, how do I know like this area, this is the
vacancy rate because somebody can be like six months, one year or
somebody can be a few months, right? Depends on the area, I guess.
How do you determine what is the vacancy rate for office and what
are the lease terms in office?
Cody:
Absolutely. So the vacancy rate is going to be area driven. And so,
you'll have certain areas like downtown Fortworth, which will have
a certain vacancy rate and then that is going to be very much
different than Las Colinas, downtown Dallas, Plano Allen, McKinney,
Frisco. We pulled something earlier today working on a few things
out in the Allen and McKinney area up there by Frisco and you know,
they're class B office spaces around 5% on the vacancy side, which
is very good for office, especially with more and more supply
continuing to come up out there. In Los Colinas, it's gonna move a
little bit more. And so, in my career, I've seen Los Colinas go
down to almost 30%, and come up to somewhere around 10.
But there's a lot of supply out there and there's always things shifting. Fortworth, I believe their occupancy is higher than what's being shown, but that's because XTO owned a bunch of the office product out there at one time and they recently sold a lot of that off. So some of that's being converted to hotels and things of that nature. But what you want to look at when you're buying an office building is yes, the area of vacancy, the area rental rates, but also the velocity of tenants, how many tenants are moving in that area. And then you also want to look at what are the size of tenants, the square footage sizes that we have and what is really the area tenant size. And so, some people will buy a building and they'll have 10,000, 15,000 square foot units, when the area is really commanding three to 5,000 square foot tenants. And so they'll see a lot longer on market time. And so what they need to do is chop those spaces down.
James:
And do people who buy, you know, I just want to add industrial. So
industrial office, are they people who syndicate deals, like what a
lot of multifamily people do? Or is it REITs or is it some
institutional or some rich guy from the coastal areas?
Cody:
It can be a rich guy like yourself or it
could [27:23crosstalk]
James:
I'm in Austin, Texas.
Cody:
It varies. When you start dealing under $5 million, a lot of that's
going to be private.
James:
But is it a lot of syndication happening?
Cody:
Oh yeah.
James:
Oh really? Okay. So, syndication is not a multifamily game only is
also in the office and industrial. Okay. That's really good to know
because I didn't know that.
Michael:
Yeah. And to go back on your question, you're asking about these
terms. So you want to make sure that, area driven but you also want
to make sure that your TIs are not going to eat you alive.
James:
Yeah. So TI is tenant improvements; just for our audience, for them
to know.
Michael:
Yes. So and you'll see a lot of these guys in office that are
moving. Sometimes they really want like a gold plated wall finish
out and you just can't do that for them. You need to make sure you
get that lease term where it can get your TIs not in the red for
the first year. I even try to keep that around like $10 or so per
square foot. But you'll see those terms go just depending on what
they need done to the space, how many offices they need built out.
You'll see that range anywhere between three years, five years,
seven or 10, sometimes 15. That's really big one that's usually the
range you'll see on a lease term.
James:
Got it. So I think it's all up to negotiation and how much the
landlord is going to pay and how strong is the lease terms and all
that. How do you qualify your tenants? I mean, let's say I'm a
buyer, I'm buying an office space with 10 different tenants in it,
how do I say this is a class A tenant, this is a class B tenant and
this is a class C tenant. And how do I say that?
Michael:
So when we underwrite a lot of these deals, we're looking at the
tenants, how long they've been there. We can also reach out to the
seller or ourselves if we know the tenant what their credit rating
is. And you can give a write upon them. Like we were selling a
three tenant deal out in Las Colinas and some of the tenants
themselves put in their own money. They put in 500,000 in
improvements to the space work for them. So that was one of the
things that we made sure that we had in our OM when we were
underwriting that deal and how much time they had left. Cause when
you're looking at these, you're like, Oh man, this guy, he's only
got a year or two left. But you know, a year or two ago they put
$500,000 into this space. So sometimes it was a really big key
factors, explaining these commitment levels of the tenant.
James:
So you said credit rating. Is there data that you pull out from
them or you just look at history and how they [30:18unclear]
Michael:
Yeah, all those things combined.
James:
But is that something that way you can pull from the credit rating
of the tenants? Is that a system or you just have to
look [30:30unclear]
Michael:
Yeah, not always, but you know, when you're working a lease deal
when I used to lease back from the day, we would get tenant
financials from them, sometimes, yeah.
James:
So based on their financials and what's their commitment to the
space that's where you establish their credit rating, I guess?
Michael:
Yes. And comfort level and then like, Oh, okay. I feel like their
financials are good enough for me to say.
James:
So it's very subjective then because I mean, somebody who want to
sell the deal, he may say to all my tenants are A-plus credit
rating, I guess. So, I'm just trying to quantify that a bit more,
but I think it looks like there's no real...
Cody:
Sometimes you would have like an A-plus credit rating or something
of that nature is when you've got like a DaVita or something of
that nature in the building or a FedEx or something like that. But
a lot of times, office buildings will have, you know, a little bit
more generic companies, local regional firms. And so that's why
Michael said if they're going to spend a lot of money on the finish
out, they'll say, Hey, we'd like to see your business financials
just so we can make sure that the money we're spending that you
look like someone's going to be in business for the term. And you
know, they're pretty much used to that.
James:
Got it. Got it. So let's say a building is being sold right now and
some of the residents have like one or two years left in their
lease. If they get to know that somebody's going to buy this
building, will they start negotiating with the new buyer or the new
buyer have an option to know whether they're going to be renewing?
How does that work? Cause you know, that basically increases your
risk.
Michael:
Yeah. So typically they do not know until you're pretty far along
in the process. So they'll usually get attendant estoppel, which
will signal to them that, Hey the building may change hands to a
new owner. But although they're getting that, it's mainly just a
lease verification to make sure also their security deposit is
transferred over as well. And you know, you don't want to alert the
tenants, but you also want to make sure that when you're working on
these, they're paying what they're saying on the OM and it's
matching what it has on the estoppel as well.
James:
Got it. Got it, got it. Well, Michael and Cody, thanks for coming.
I mean, can you tell our audience and listeners how to get hold of
you? You guys are doing really big deals in the DFW area. I'm not
sure, are you guys covering any of the areas other than DFW?
Cody:
I'd say 95% of the business that we've got is in DFW now. We will
branch out and sell a couple of things here and there. We're
actually about to bring out a 20 story office tower out in Corpus
Christi. That's a relationship that we have.
James:
Let me know if some of the towers in Austin is coming for Salem.
Probably I can even buy one.
Cody:
Absolutely.
James:
I just heard there are 37 new towers coming in Austin.
Cody:
Well, there's a lot of people that are looking out there, I can
tell you that.
James:
Yeah. So why not you guys tell our audience how to get hold of you
guys.
Cody:
I'll do it. So yeah, Cody Payne, Michael Tran. Our number is (817)
840-0055, we're with Colliers International, we're office and
industrial specialists and we've got some really good self-storage
and retail guys here as well.
James:
Good, good. Guys, look for a specialist because all this asset
class, there's a lot of nuances to it as so much of details. Not
everybody can do this. And you know, these guys are some of the
best in the industry. Thanks for coming on
Cody:
See you.